Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #321  
Old 01.02.2016, 21:20
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,883
Groaned at 229 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 22,733 Times in 9,654 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
Kind of unsettling study. 65% of the Muslims living in EU polled said the Koran is more important than government laws
I'm not sure what that means.

There are lots of laws that I consider bullcr@p, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. But I still try to respect those laws because that's how things work (even if I do jaywalk regularly and break lots of other minor laws with similar frequency).

Why should I condemn a Muslim for being of similar inclination?
Reply With Quote
  #322  
Old 01.02.2016, 22:12
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Zug
Posts: 90
Groaned at 22 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 491 Times in 262 Posts
NomadAmericano is considered knowledgeableNomadAmericano is considered knowledgeableNomadAmericano is considered knowledgeable
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
What does being "more important than government laws" mean?

Does it mean, "Thou shalt not commit adultery, but there's no governemt law"; "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, but there's no law against it."

Perhaps "abortion is murder, even though government law says otherthwise".

Maybe you're right. Maybe they mean "Behead the infidels, and to hell with the government". That'd be concerning.

It's a stupid comparison, without a lot more explanation.

No. But that wasn't the question. If I want some soup, I'll go to Migros and not the local police station. Define "important".
They mean Sharia.
Reply With Quote
  #323  
Old 02.02.2016, 02:15
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 8,169
Groaned at 387 Times in 295 Posts
Thanked 10,619 Times in 5,604 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
They mean Sharia.
How do you know?
Reply With Quote
  #324  
Old 02.02.2016, 12:42
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Zug
Posts: 90
Groaned at 22 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 491 Times in 262 Posts
NomadAmericano is considered knowledgeableNomadAmericano is considered knowledgeableNomadAmericano is considered knowledgeable
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

The "religious rules" (the term used in the study) of the Koran constitute a body of Islamic law titled "Sharia."
Reply With Quote
  #325  
Old 02.02.2016, 18:30
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 8,169
Groaned at 387 Times in 295 Posts
Thanked 10,619 Times in 5,604 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
The "religious rules" (the term used in the study) of the Koran constitute a body of Islamic law titled "Sharia."
If the study meant Sharia law why wasn't that term used, why ask about the "rules of the Koran" instead? Either the question is actually intended to create ambiguity or the Sharia was not meant.

A practicing muslim is to pray five times a day I think, I'd call that a rule not a law. In order to obey a muslim has to be aware of it many times every day, which automatically makes it an important. Thoughts like this may well be the reason for the high approval rate to this question.

Also take note that the question Christians were asked is
"104. The rules of the Bible are more important to me than the laws of [survey country]."
here also the term rules is used, neither law nor the Ten Commandments.
Reply With Quote
  #326  
Old 02.02.2016, 19:28
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Zug
Posts: 90
Groaned at 22 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 491 Times in 262 Posts
NomadAmericano is considered knowledgeableNomadAmericano is considered knowledgeableNomadAmericano is considered knowledgeable
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
If the study meant Sharia law why wasn't that term used, why ask about the "rules of the Koran" instead? Either the question is actually intended to create ambiguity or the Sharia was not meant.

A practicing muslim is to pray five times a day I think, I'd call that a rule not a law. In order to obey a muslim has to be aware of it many times every day, which automatically makes it an important. Thoughts like this may well be the reason for the high approval rate to this question.

Also take note that the question Christians were asked is
"104. The rules of the Bible are more important to me than the laws of [survey country]."
here also the term rules is used, neither law nor the Ten Commandments.
You make good points. I would guess that the researchers used the term "rules" instead of "Sharia" so that they could compare Muslim and Christian responses by way of standard questions. They could not ask the Christians whether Sharia should trump local law.

I grant your point that perhaps some Muslim respondents did not think of Sharia. But as Sharia is Muslim law, I argue that this distinction is not statistically important. Indeed, other studies have shown high proportions of Muslim populations support Sharia. See this ongoing Pew study http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...und-the-world/

Sadly, certain Muslim groups like the Sufis, that do not take the Koran literally, are heavily outnumbered by those Muslims who do take it literally. (Indeed, their argument is that you are an apostate if you do not take the Koran as the literal word of god.) This is sad because Sharia is diametrically opposed to Western values such as democracy, secularism, etc., and therefore the more it is followed the more people suffer and the more humanity regresses.
Reply With Quote
  #327  
Old 02.02.2016, 19:44
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

In the meantime, Kansas has just voted to reverse the law that made it illegal to beat your wife and the Vatican confirms that having an abortion is much worse that raping someone ...
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #328  
Old 03.02.2016, 00:16
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 8,169
Groaned at 387 Times in 295 Posts
Thanked 10,619 Times in 5,604 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
You make good points. I would guess that the researchers used the term "rules" instead of "Sharia" so that they could compare Muslim and Christian responses by way of standard questions. They could not ask the Christians whether Sharia should trump local law.

I grant your point that perhaps some Muslim respondents did not think of Sharia. But as Sharia is Muslim law, I argue that this distinction is not statistically important. Indeed, other studies have shown high proportions of Muslim populations support Sharia. See this ongoing Pew study http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...und-the-world/

Sadly, certain Muslim groups like the Sufis, that do not take the Koran literally, are heavily outnumbered by those Muslims who do take it literally. (Indeed, their argument is that you are an apostate if you do not take the Koran as the literal word of god.) This is sad because Sharia is diametrically opposed to Western values such as democracy, secularism, etc., and therefore the more it is followed the more people suffer and the more humanity regresses.
1st bolded) Nope, there was one distinct set of questions for muslim and another one for christians. The number of questions differed vastly, if memory serves 150 questions for the muslims but only 110 for the christians (the "Koran rules" question was about #140 while the "Bible rules" question was about #105). This alone places considerable doubt on the neutrality, and thus scientific value, of the study.

2nd bolded) From the Pew study:
"Nearly all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) support sharia law as official law. But in some other countries, especially in Eastern Europe and Central Asia – including Turkey (12%), Kazakhstan (10%) and Azerbaijan (8%) – relatively few favor the implementation of sharia law."

North african countries are not mentioned, Syria may lean towards Iraq or just as well towards Turkey thus it's anybody's guess which direction the muslims arriving here leant towards.

My objection holds, rules is quite a different thing than law. Please prove your assertion.
Reply With Quote
  #329  
Old 03.02.2016, 00:48
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,883
Groaned at 229 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 22,733 Times in 9,654 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
In the meantime, Kansas has just voted to reverse the law that made it illegal to beat your wife and the Vatican confirms that having an abortion is much worse that raping someone ...
The Vatican is in good company then as the German justice minister Heiko Maass says posting negative things about Merkel or immigrants on facebook is far worse than rape.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #330  
Old 03.02.2016, 08:49
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Zug
Posts: 90
Groaned at 22 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 491 Times in 262 Posts
NomadAmericano is considered knowledgeableNomadAmericano is considered knowledgeableNomadAmericano is considered knowledgeable
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
1st bolded) Nope, there was one distinct set of questions for muslim and another one for christians. The number of questions differed vastly, if memory serves 150 questions for the muslims but only 110 for the christians (the "Koran rules" question was about #140 while the "Bible rules" question was about #105). This alone places considerable doubt on the neutrality, and thus scientific value, of the study.

2nd bolded) From the Pew study:
"Nearly all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) support sharia law as official law. But in some other countries, especially in Eastern Europe and Central Asia – including Turkey (12%), Kazakhstan (10%) and
Azerbaijan (8%) – relatively few favor the implementation of sharia law."

North african countries are not mentioned, Syria may lean towards Iraq or just as well towards Turkey thus it's anybody's guess which direction the muslims arriving here leant towards.

My objection holds, rules is quite a different thing than law. Please prove your assertion.
Urs Max, you just quoted the Pew study that says "Sharia". Sharia is the term for Islamic law and includes the "rules" of the Koran. I have nothing left to prove.

Why do you say the questions regarding rules were different when they were not? You seem to be conflating the issue of the use of the stanardized use of the term "rules" in the questions asked of both Christians and Muslims with your dislike of the study's methodology.

Were all these questions asked in English? What's Pashto for "rules"? Perhaps we're arguing irrelevant semantics.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank NomadAmericano for this useful post:
  #331  
Old 03.02.2016, 08:51
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Zug
Posts: 90
Groaned at 22 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 491 Times in 262 Posts
NomadAmericano is considered knowledgeableNomadAmericano is considered knowledgeableNomadAmericano is considered knowledgeable
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
In the meantime, Kansas has just voted to reverse the law that made it illegal to beat your wife and the Vatican confirms that having an abortion is much worse that raping someone ...
Do you have a link for the Kansas law? Geniunely curious - can't find anything with a google search.
Reply With Quote
  #332  
Old 03.02.2016, 11:26
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 8,169
Groaned at 387 Times in 295 Posts
Thanked 10,619 Times in 5,604 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
Urs Max, you just quoted the Pew study that says "Sharia". Sharia is the term for Islamic law and includes the "rules" of the Koran. I have nothing left to prove.

Why do you say the questions regarding rules were different when they were not? You seem to be conflating the issue of the use of the stanardized use of the term "rules" in the questions asked of both Christians and Muslims with your dislike of the study's methodology.

Were all these questions asked in English? What's Pashto for "rules"? Perhaps we're arguing irrelevant semantics.
The starting point isn't the Pew study, but the one by published on wzb.eu., where they use the term "rules" in Koran and not Sharia. Had they used Sharia instead there'd no ambiguity.
Reply With Quote
  #333  
Old 03.02.2016, 11:40
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,883
Groaned at 229 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 22,733 Times in 9,654 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
"rules" in Koran and not Sharia.
The Sharia does not base purely on stuff in the Koran. There is also stuff from the Hadith. In fact many of the more controversial bits are from the latter.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #334  
Old 03.02.2016, 12:06
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Are there any good reasons why Sharia should be hindered from being practiced by Muslims in the West? So long as the same Muslims adhere to the secular laws of their host country, and that Sharia is not imposed on those who aren't Muslims. What are some possible problems with that?
Reply With Quote
  #335  
Old 03.02.2016, 12:19
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,883
Groaned at 229 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 22,733 Times in 9,654 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
Are there any good reasons why Sharia should be hindered from being practiced by Muslims in the West? So long as the same Muslims adhere to the secular laws of their host country, and that Sharia is not imposed on those who aren't Muslims. What are some possible problems with that?
Some of the stuff in Sharia is about things such as how to wash your hands and with which hand you should wipe your arse. I don't see any difference between that and say, Mormon rules on what type of underwear you should be wearing.

It is one of the appealing aspects of a libertarian society that state laws are kept to an absolute minimum but people are free to voluntarily live by whatever laws they want and freely associate within groups who set their own laws and contracts.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #336  
Old 03.02.2016, 12:32
FunnyBone's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Earth
Posts: 828
Groaned at 40 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 1,212 Times in 527 Posts
FunnyBone has a reputation beyond reputeFunnyBone has a reputation beyond reputeFunnyBone has a reputation beyond reputeFunnyBone has a reputation beyond reputeFunnyBone has a reputation beyond reputeFunnyBone has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

There is the benign rule of hand washing (which brings to mind the question of what happens if you break that rule and wipe with your right hand or not at all); and then there are the rules that are at odds with a secular society (well, as secular as it gets).

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/pete...b_6658808.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discri...ainst_atheists
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank FunnyBone for this useful post:
  #337  
Old 03.02.2016, 13:00
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
There is the benign rule of hand washing (which brings to mind the question of what happens if you break that rule and wipe with your right hand or not at all); and then there are the rules that are at odds with a secular society (well, as secular as it gets).

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/pete...b_6658808.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discri...ainst_atheists
Before throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as long as Sharia is not applied to non-Muslims, and elements that are illegal by secular laws, such as death to apostasy, stays illegal, since there is plenty of room for co-existence otherwise. Is there anyone really calling for the prevalence of Sharia to override Secular laws otherwise? Is there an existing problem with a call for Sharia for Muslims?
Reply With Quote
  #338  
Old 03.02.2016, 13:04
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,758
Groaned at 430 Times in 371 Posts
Thanked 17,910 Times in 9,543 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
Before throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as long as Sharia is not applied to non-Muslims, and elements that are illegal by secular laws, such as death to apostasy, stays illegal, since there is plenty of room for co-existence otherwise. Is there anyone really calling for the prevalence of Sharia to override Secular laws otherwise? Is there an existing problem with a call for Sharia for Muslims?

Good idea!
This would be a useful way for foreign criminal Muslims in Switzerland to avoid deportation since Sharia does not have a penalty of deportation.
Reply With Quote
  #339  
Old 03.02.2016, 13:09
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
Good idea!
This would be a useful way for foreign criminal Muslims in Switzerland to avoid deportation since Sharia does not have a penalty of deportation.
Well, for those who are wary of the idea of Sharia, I don't think it is a good idea to negate Sharia for Muslims. As long as it is an additive law, and does not negate secular laws. And as long as it isn't applied to non-Muslims

I'm thinking The Island of Dr. Moreau here. It could be problematic to negate the Sayer of the Law.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #340  
Old 03.02.2016, 13:24
TobiasM's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,263
Groaned at 183 Times in 131 Posts
Thanked 2,771 Times in 1,281 Posts
TobiasM has a reputation beyond reputeTobiasM has a reputation beyond reputeTobiasM has a reputation beyond reputeTobiasM has a reputation beyond reputeTobiasM has a reputation beyond reputeTobiasM has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Surely if the Muslim community wants to use Sharia law that should be fine as long as civil law is also adhered too. However it should be civil law that has the final say in any serious matter including penalization. But why should we assume a domestic dispute between two Muslims cannot be decided through Sharia, as long as both parties are happy with that and the outcome. It save time and money in the civil courts.

Sharia is as simple as being Halal but can cover everything, however it should be insisted that when matters of a serious nature that constitutes a crime in civil society are broken that it is for civil law to decide the appropriate course of action or penalization.

Is it that much different from a Catholic who has sinned getting given Hail Marie's at confession?

Personally I would rather have everybody equal under a civil law, but as we all know, there is no real equality even in the eyes of the law.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Will borders with CH be affected after terrorist attacks? McTAVGE Daily life 19 15.11.2015 18:14
The All Muslims are evil thread bigblue2 General off-topic 4 27.08.2010 15:46
Confused about coverage in rest of Europe on Swiss Health Insurance Wingnut Insurance 8 15.12.2008 09:20


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 13:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0