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  #341  
Old 03.02.2016, 13:32
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Do you have a link for the Kansas law? Geniunely curious - can't find anything with a google search.
Sorry, didn't see your post earlier. It is from an article in a French magazine- actually published a couple of years ago, but re-posted by a friend the other day. The magazine is called 'Femme Actuelle'. In short, as the Courts had to cut their budget drastically, and as the majortiy of cases was about conjugal violence, they just 'cancelled the law' - simple! :

La loi punissant les violences domestiques vient d’être abrogée à Topeka, capitale du Kansas. La raison ? Un conflit de responsabilités entre le Comté (administration d’Etat) et la ville.
A l’origine, une coupe budgétaire de 10% vient amoindrir le budget du Comté. Une situation récurrente et commune à de nombreux Etats du pays, conséquence d’une crise qui s’infiltre dans les enveloppes des gouvernements locaux.
Problème, comment compenser ces pertes de budget ? Le procureur a la réponse : la moitié des plaintes traitées par le tribunal sont des cas de violence conjugale. Il suffit donc de les placer sous la responsabilité de la ville de Topeka. Et c’est là que ça coince. Dan Stanley, actuel maire de la ville de Topeka n’est pas en mesure de traiter ces cas « Nous n’avons pas assez de procureurs, de tribunaux, ni de personnels pour prendre soudainement en charge ces victimes », déclare-t-il dans le journal local.
La solution est ensuite purement politique : la ville décide de décriminaliser les violences domestiques pour obliger le Comté à en reprendre la responsabilité. A 7 voix contre 3, mardi dernier, la loi était purement et simplement supprimée. Aujourd'hui, la seule peine risquée en cas de violence conjugale est donc...l'impunité.
Depuis le début du conflit, trente personnes ont été arrêtées pour des cas de violences domestiques. Toutes ont été libérées, faute de pouvoir comparaître. Pour l’instant, aucun arrangement entre les deux parties n’a été trouvé.
En France, 156 femmes meurent sous les coups de leur conjoint chaque année. Le gouvernement a décidé de faire de la lutte contre la violence conjugale une priorité nationale. En juillet 2010, le harcèlement moral était reconnu comme un délit.
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  #342  
Old 03.02.2016, 13:35
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Personally I would rather have everybody equal under a civil law, but as we all know, there is no real equality even in the eyes of the law.
Don't you mean criminal law?

From my understanding criminal law is the law where the state prosecutes you. This includes things like murder. You cannot reach an amicable agreement but must go the route of the law.

Then there is civil law which is about disputes between equals. In these cases you can reach an agreement outside of the courts and the courts don't care. So for example if you steal something and the victim says its OK, then it stops there. Even if the police have got involved.

So I would say Sharia may be an alternative to civil law (assuming both parties agree) but cannot be an alternative to criminal law.
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  #343  
Old 03.02.2016, 15:07
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Then there is civil law which is about disputes between equals. In these cases you can reach an agreement outside of the courts and the courts don't care. So for example if you steal something and the victim says its OK, then it stops there. Even if the police have got involved.
Don't think so, it must be prosecuted once reported. You can't report a theft and then withdraw because you changed your mind. Only exception I think if the culprit is part of the family, but don't hang me up on this part.

From the Kanton Bern, FAQ on prosecution:
Difference between "Strafanzeige" (report an incident) and "Privatklage" (sue someone):
"Die Privatklage kann jederzeit zurückgezogen werden. Der Rückzug ist definitiv." When you sue somebody you can always cancel that, but there's no such remark about the Strafanzeige thus in can't be withdrawn (except in certain cases such as theft within the family).

Last edited by Urs Max; 03.02.2016 at 15:36.
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  #344  
Old 03.02.2016, 15:32
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Don't you mean criminal law?

From my understanding criminal law is the law where the state prosecutes you. This includes things like murder. You cannot reach an amicable agreement but must go the route of the law.

Then there is civil law which is about disputes between equals. In these cases you can reach an agreement outside of the courts and the courts don't care. So for example if you steal something and the victim says its OK, then it stops there. Even if the police have got involved.

So I would say Sharia may be an alternative to civil law (assuming both parties agree) but cannot be an alternative to criminal law.
Civil law is what I meant, as I say equal under civil law, not talking about murder or rape or robbery, more like who's tree is growing over who's fence. There are also serious matters in civil cases that should not be dealt with by Sharia. This whole issue, was an issue in Britain about 15 years ago, and Sharia is being used in some parts of Britain for minor disputes in the Muslim community.
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  #345  
Old 03.02.2016, 15:38
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

The wikis on Sharia are extensive and beyond my will to read them in depth. Some of you are very knowledgable in the matter, some of you more curious, but to me it spells trouble. Who is the judge here? Do they go to law school? Same law schools as the rest of us?

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia
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  #346  
Old 03.02.2016, 15:45
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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The wikis on Sharia are extensive and beyond my will to read them in depth. Some of you are very knowledgable in the matter, some of you more curious, but to me it spells trouble. Who is the judge here? Do they go to law school? Same law schools as the rest of us?

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia
If a bunch of people want to sit in a back room and play at being a tribunal, by all means let them. As long as they're all in it volunatrily and nobdy is being forced or coerced or bullied. If it contributes to peace in the community by de-escalating conflicts, all the better.

However, should there be a conflict with regular law, then regular law should overrule in all cases.

If you play soccer or basketball, you play by the rules of the game. If you join a hobby club, you abide by the statutes of that club. Some clubs even have tribunals to deal with people who break the rules. Is this underming the law of the land? No, because it is volunatry and you can always walk away if you disagree, even if the consequnec of that are that you can't play soccer any more or can't fly your model plane on their grounds.
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  #347  
Old 03.02.2016, 15:46
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

I'ts called Stammtish around here- or the Masonic Lodge (one of the many reasons why many C/Kantons are asking for appartenance to such by Judges and Police should be disclosed- but they are resisting VERY hard. Wonder why )
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  #348  
Old 03.02.2016, 19:10
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Well, for those who are wary of the idea of Sharia, I don't think it is a good idea to negate Sharia for Muslims. As long as it is an additive law, and does not negate secular laws. And as long as it isn't applied to non-Muslims

I'm thinking The Island of Dr. Moreau here. It could be problematic to negate the Sayer of the Law.


I do not see how you could have Sharia as an "additive law" to secular law?


How do you run two different sets of laws in parallel?
If secular law always takes priority then what is the role of Sharia law; what is left for application of Sharia?
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  #349  
Old 03.02.2016, 19:14
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Don't think so, it must be prosecuted once reported. You can't report a theft and then withdraw because you changed your mind. Only exception I think if the culprit is part of the family, but don't hang me up on this part.

From the Kanton Bern, FAQ on prosecution:
Difference between "Strafanzeige" (report an incident) and "Privatklage" (sue someone):
"Die Privatklage kann jederzeit zurückgezogen werden. Der Rückzug ist definitiv." When you sue somebody you can always cancel that, but there's no such remark about the Strafanzeige thus in can't be withdrawn (except in certain cases such as theft within the family).
Interesting post; probably also applies to the other thread about DSI.
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  #350  
Old 14.02.2016, 21:03
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Block on boycotts of Israeli goods now introduced here

Seems the UK Government has recognised that the main impact of boycotts of Israeli goods was to move Palestinians from relatively well paid jobs into unemployment. (Sodastream is a good example where 300 Palestinians were boycotted into joblessness).
Presumably this was contrary to the aims of the boycott supporters who wanted to improve the life of Palestinians?
Or did the boycotter's really want to drive the Palestinians into desperation and fruitless but bloody riots?
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  #351  
Old 14.02.2016, 21:21
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Sorry, didn't see your post earlier. It is from an article in a French magazine- actually published a couple of years ago, but re-posted by a friend the other day. The magazine is called 'Femme Actuelle'. In short, as the Courts had to cut their budget drastically, and as the majortiy of cases was about conjugal violence, they just 'cancelled the law' - simple! :

La loi punissant les violences domestiques vient d’être abrogée à Topeka, capitale du Kansas. La raison ? Un conflit de responsabilités entre le Comté (administration d’Etat) et la ville.
A l’origine, une coupe budgétaire de 10% vient amoindrir le budget du Comté. Une situation récurrente et commune à de nombreux Etats du pays, conséquence d’une crise qui s’infiltre dans les enveloppes des gouvernements locaux.
Problème, comment compenser ces pertes de budget ? Le procureur a la réponse : la moitié des plaintes traitées par le tribunal sont des cas de violence conjugale. Il suffit donc de les placer sous la responsabilité de la ville de Topeka. Et c’est là que ça coince. Dan Stanley, actuel maire de la ville de Topeka n’est pas en mesure de traiter ces cas « Nous n’avons pas assez de procureurs, de tribunaux, ni de personnels pour prendre soudainement en charge ces victimes », déclare-t-il dans le journal local.
La solution est ensuite purement politique : la ville décide de décriminaliser les violences domestiques pour obliger le Comté à en reprendre la responsabilité. A 7 voix contre 3, mardi dernier, la loi était purement et simplement supprimée. Aujourd'hui, la seule peine risquée en cas de violence conjugale est donc...l'impunité.
Depuis le début du conflit, trente personnes ont été arrêtées pour des cas de violences domestiques. Toutes ont été libérées, faute de pouvoir comparaître. Pour l’instant, aucun arrangement entre les deux parties n’a été trouvé.
En France, 156 femmes meurent sous les coups de leur conjoint chaque année. Le gouvernement a décidé de faire de la lutte contre la violence conjugale une priorité nationale. En juillet 2010, le harcèlement moral était reconnu comme un délit.
Thanks - I found a version of that story from 2011 or so. In the States, criminal laws as dealt with at the state level. The State of Kansas did not repeal domestic abuse as a crime. It seems be an administrative matter. Some municipality got into a fight with the surrounding county about paying for jail cells or some such.
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  #352  
Old 14.02.2016, 22:56
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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In the meantime, Kansas has just voted to reverse the law that made it illegal to beat your wife and the Vatican confirms that having an abortion is much worse that raping someone ...


If any one of these Kansaser , just thinking of beating my wife , they have to deal with me first . Fecken Sugar beat farmers
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  #353  
Old 15.02.2016, 17:46
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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If any one of these Kansaser , just thinking of beating my wife , they have to deal with me first . Fecken Sugar beat farmers
It's about a hubby beating his wife, not any random woman.
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  #354  
Old 10.03.2016, 09:08
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Interesting, the ISIS staff list has been leaked by a disgruntled recruit... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-HR-forms.html

Could lead to some significant arrests and progress.
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  #355  
Old 10.03.2016, 14:33
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Interesting, the ISIS staff list has been leaked by a disgruntled recruit... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-HR-forms.html

Could lead to some significant arrests and progress.
If this report is correct than it will be an enormous coup for the anti-terrorist forces.
Who would have thought that ISIS kept such detailed records?

In the same article it is said that ISIS is now managed by ex-soldiers from Saddam's army. Could well be true, ISIs is certainly well managed.
I always thought the biggest mistake the US made in Iraq was to disband the army. They should have kept them in place, paid them well and given them work to do rebuilding the country.
Firing trained soldiers then leaving them unpaid and unemployed was always a recipe for disaster.
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  #356  
Old 17.03.2016, 11:08
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Don't you mean criminal law?

From my understanding criminal law is the law where the state prosecutes you. This includes things like murder. You cannot reach an amicable agreement but must go the route of the law.

Then there is civil law which is about disputes between equals. In these cases you can reach an agreement outside of the courts and the courts don't care. So for example if you steal something and the victim says its OK, then it stops there. Even if the police have got involved.

So I would say Sharia may be an alternative to civil law (assuming both parties agree) but cannot be an alternative to criminal law.
It is essentially, no more than a glorified arbitration service, with no actual power. People love to pretend it is an entirely different system of law, but its actually pretty bland. The two parties come together, and some intermediaries try and find common ground which pleases everybody.

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Civil law is what I meant, as I say equal under civil law, not talking about murder or rape or robbery, more like who's tree is growing over who's fence. There are also serious matters in civil cases that should not be dealt with by Sharia. This whole issue, was an issue in Britain about 15 years ago, and Sharia is being used in some parts of Britain for minor disputes in the Muslim community.
Yes.

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If a bunch of people want to sit in a back room and play at being a tribunal, by all means let them. As long as they're all in it volunatrily and nobdy is being forced or coerced or bullied. If it contributes to peace in the community by de-escalating conflicts, all the better.

However, should there be a conflict with regular law, then regular law should overrule in all cases.

If you play soccer or basketball, you play by the rules of the game. If you join a hobby club, you abide by the statutes of that club. Some clubs even have tribunals to deal with people who break the rules. Is this underming the law of the land? No, because it is volunatry and you can always walk away if you disagree, even if the consequnec of that are that you can't play soccer any more or can't fly your model plane on their grounds.
That is, essentially, all it is. I've never come across a sharia tribunal which has conflicted with the law. Since the tribunal has no actual legal power, it wouldn't actually be able to enforce anything anyway. Its usually just a bunch of old people sitting around a table and trying to settle a minor dispute.

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I do not see how you could have Sharia as an "additive law" to secular law?


How do you run two different sets of laws in parallel?
If secular law always takes priority then what is the role of Sharia law; what is left for application of Sharia?
The role is to handle the inconsequential stuff that the justice system doesn't need to be clogged up with. Theres no benefit to getting a magistrate involved when its something that can be handled by the local community - that was the whole idea behind them. Free up resources in the justice system to deal with real crime, rather than piddling disputes between individuals that dont need the full justice system to handle.
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  #357  
Old 17.03.2016, 11:10
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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If this report is correct than it will be an enormous coup for the anti-terrorist forces.
Who would have thought that ISIS kept such detailed records?

In the same article it is said that ISIS is now managed by ex-soldiers from Saddam's army. Could well be true, ISIs is certainly well managed.
I always thought the biggest mistake the US made in Iraq was to disband the army. They should have kept them in place, paid them well and given them work to do rebuilding the country.
Firing trained soldiers then leaving them unpaid and unemployed was always a recipe for disaster.
It was always managed by ex-saddam forces.

As you say, one of the biggest contributing factors to ISIS was the disbanding of saddams army. All of a sudden, there were hundreds of thousands of soldiers with no soldiering to do. They should have been used to aid the rebuilding effort, or to maintain order of some sort, rather then being thrown out without so much as confiscating their weapons. Stupidity on a scale rarely seen in history.
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  #358  
Old 17.03.2016, 11:25
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You make good points. I would guess that the researchers used the term "rules" instead of "Sharia" so that they could compare Muslim and Christian responses by way of standard questions. They could not ask the Christians whether Sharia should trump local law.

I grant your point that perhaps some Muslim respondents did not think of Sharia. But as Sharia is Muslim law, I argue that this distinction is not statistically important. Indeed, other studies have shown high proportions of Muslim populations support Sharia. See this ongoing Pew study http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...und-the-world/

Sadly, certain Muslim groups like the Sufis, that do not take the Koran literally, are heavily outnumbered by those Muslims who do take it literally. (Indeed, their argument is that you are an apostate if you do not take the Koran as the literal word of god.) This is sad because Sharia is diametrically opposed to Western values such as democracy, secularism, etc., and therefore the more it is followed the more people suffer and the more humanity regresses.
Wrong. Sharia and Muslim Law are two different things. Sharia is more accurately defined as islamic jurisprudence.

The rules by which Muslims live are much bigger than Sharia - Sharia only covers jurisprudence, and is actually fairly limited in telling people how to live their lives.

And actually, the Sufis are a minority of the global muslim population. Quite a small minority, since they are only prevalent in the middle east, which itself is less than a quarter of the global muslim population.

Sharia itself is pretty secular - it makes no measure of the religion of the offender/victim. It is, actually, a secular jurisprudence system, for a non-secular people.

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Urs Max, you just quoted the Pew study that says "Sharia". Sharia is the term for Islamic law and includes the "rules" of the Koran. I have nothing left to prove.

Why do you say the questions regarding rules were different when they were not? You seem to be conflating the issue of the use of the stanardized use of the term "rules" in the questions asked of both Christians and Muslims with your dislike of the study's methodology.

Were all these questions asked in English? What's Pashto for "rules"? Perhaps we're arguing irrelevant semantics.
No it isn't. Sharia is Islamic jurisprudence, not Islamic law.
For example:
Sharia does not actually forbid murder. It only proscribes the punishment for it.
The actual legal forbidding of murder murder is unrelated to Sharia.

There is not a strictly codified uniform set of laws that can be called Sharia. It is more like a system of practices, based on the Quran, Hadith and centuries of debate, interpretation and precedent.

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The Sharia does not base purely on stuff in the Koran. There is also stuff from the Hadith. In fact many of the more controversial bits are from the latter.
Correct - it is very open to interpretation. Sometimes it can be interpreted very rigidly, but it can also be interpreted in very different, yet equally applicable and valid ways.

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Good idea!
This would be a useful way for foreign criminal Muslims in Switzerland to avoid deportation since Sharia does not have a penalty of deportation.
Sharia penalties tend to be much worse, actually. The penalty for theft is up to and including the loss of your hand. I bet most thieves would prefer deportation than that.
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  #359  
Old 17.03.2016, 11:25
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Block on boycotts of Israeli goods now introduced here

Seems the UK Government has recognised that the main impact of boycotts of Israeli goods was to move Palestinians from relatively well paid jobs into unemployment. (Sodastream is a good example where 300 Palestinians were boycotted into joblessness).
Presumably this was contrary to the aims of the boycott supporters who wanted to improve the life of Palestinians?
Or did the boycotter's really want to drive the Palestinians into desperation and fruitless but bloody riots?
In the case of South Africa and the Apartheid boycots, this is what an organizer told me.

I argued that if you hurt the South African economy, the first to suffer will be the blacks who lose their jobs.

The organizer said, yes, that's the idea. we want them to get really angry and so push them from their present lethargy and acceptance into civil disobedience.

So this type of boycotts are in the eyes of some indeed about making the poor even poorer in the belief that that will encourage an uprising.
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  #360  
Old 17.03.2016, 11:33
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Sharia itself is pretty secular - it makes no measure of the religion of the offender/victim. It is, actually, a secular jurisprudence system, for a non-secular people.
t.
If you really believe that it means you have a peculiar understanding of "secular".
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