English Forum Switzerland

English Forum Switzerland (https://www.englishforum.ch/forum.php)
-   International affairs/politics (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/)
-   -   All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe) (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/244043-all-about-muslims-wake-terrorist-attacks-europe.html)

Brian1985 20.11.2015 16:42

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by J2488 (Post 2489361)
Lol. I love it when people make this ridiculous argument. Its such a stupid conclusion.


Let say there is a terror cell in the UK consisting of 5 men.


There are three million (approx.) Muslims in the UK, more if you count kids.


5/3000000 = 0.000 0017%.


Now, how many of the 3 million do you believe are exposed to the 5 bad ones and know them particularly well? well, lets say these particular terrorists are popular guys, so 20.


20/2,999,995 = 0.000 06 % of muslims exposed to a terror cell.


Now, factor in the fact that the 5 bad ones will do everything they can to hide their intentions. they don't tell anyone they will kill people, nor do they broadcast it to the Muslim community. The chance of actually discovering genuine terrorists is proportional to their presence in the wider community. ie, 0.000 000 17%.


So, out of 3,000,000, you want 0.000 06% to help you find 0.000 0017%, with a 0.000 0017% chance of being successful?


If we assume they are able to hide their intentions from half of these 20 (which in turn, makes them very bad at their purpose, but lets assume they are popular but incompetent), that means there is at most, 10 people, in 2,999,995. Or, 0.000 003%.


So, these 0.000 003% are supposed to help find 0.000 0017%, with a 0.000 0017% success possibility?


If the british government, with thousands of analysts, can read every text message, scrutinise every mb of data, piggy-back every CCTV camera, listen in to every phone call, and observe thousands simultaneously, and they still cant find them, what chance does Amjad from the corner shop have?


Do you think muslims have a secret address book with the name and address of every terrorist in it, and theyre just stubbornly refusing to hand it over?


Do you think that all it takes is for an imam to stand up and say 'right lads, you've had your fun, but that's enough now, put down the pipe bomb and behave yourself', and overnight the problems will disappear?


I hear lots of this bullshit about 'oh, well they don't do anything about it'...what exactly do you want them to do about it? Find people that work incredibly hard not to be found, who look, act, and behave exactly the same as everyone else?


Or do you just want someone to blame, because you know they aren't in a position to defend themselves?


I think there are a number of issues that call into question whether or not Muslims are doing enough to combat Islamic extremism, at least here in the UK. I can't comment on the situation in the US or Switzerland as I have no experience living in those countries.

1) Many Muslims in the UK choose to segregate themselves by living in closed communities where they have little to no interaction with the locals. This begs the question, why come to the UK (or any Western nation for that matter) if you have no desire to integrate or mix with the locals?

2) The desire to import their own judicial system (Sharia courts). One of the cornerstones of any successful nation is one rule of law for all. Here in the UK we have allowed Sharia courts to spring up to deal with civil matters.

3) Surveys that show that while most Muslims oppose killing others, many (a 3rd in the UK) sympathise with the Charlie Hebdo killings and the motives behind the attack.

4) The serial child grooming/gang-rape cases that have happened, and still are happening, up and down the UK (see Rotherham where 1,400 girls were systematically abused) with local government and police officers too afraid to do anything about it for fear of upsetting the PC apple cart.

The Muslim community needs to do what the Catholic community in Northern Ireland did with the IRA which is to come out and aggressively denounce ISIS and start to work with British authorities instead of posting @notinmyname posts on twitter and going back to their closed-off communities.

Guest 20.11.2015 16:48

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1985 (Post 2489393)
why come to the UK (or any Western nation for that matter) if you have no desire to integrate or mix with the locals?

You're asking this question here? On englishforum.ch?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...afacce2f8e.jpg

Guest 20.11.2015 17:05

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
So, now Trump says all Muslims in the USA have to be entered in a specific database and will have to carry specific idea stating their religion:eek:

Urs Max 20.11.2015 17:07

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1985 (Post 2489393)
I think there are a number of issues that call into question whether or not Muslims are doing enough to combat Islamic extremism, at least here in the UK. I can't comment on the situation in the US or Switzerland as I have no experience living in those countries.

1) Many Muslims in the UK choose to segregate themselves by living in closed communities where they have little to no interaction with the locals. This begs the question, why come to the UK (or any Western nation for that matter) if you have no desire to integrate or mix with the locals?

Because they're looking to better their lives for instance by fleeing to safety. Pure pragmatism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1985 (Post 2489393)
2) The desire to import their own judicial system (Sharia courts). One of the cornerstones of any successful nation is one rule of law for all. Here in the UK we have allowed Sharia courts to spring up to deal with civil matters.

It's international practice that the law the marriage was closed under is also the law guiding the divorce (exceptions apply of course, often the couple can pick applicable law; nonetheless the default stands). For instance german courts routinely rule on divorce under islamic law.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1985 (Post 2489393)
3) Surveys that show that while most Muslims oppose killing others, many (a 3rd in the UK) sympathise with the Charlie Hebdo killings and the motives behind the attack.

So what.

AFAIK there's no death penalty in the UK yet many of those respondents would probably say death penalty is Ok, as presumably does a large portion of the "normal" UK population.

Being against any given law is not equal to breaking it. Otherwise about half the voting population in Switzerland would routinely be breaking the laws they're voting to have changed.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1985 (Post 2489393)
4) The serial child grooming/gang-rape cases that have happened, and still are happening, up and down the UK (see Rotherham where 1,400 girls were systematically abused) with local government and police officers too afraid to do anything about it for fear of upsetting the PC apple cart.

Irrelevant to this hijacked thread.
Unless of course you want to imply that islamists have infiltrated UK political and judicial system 20 or more years ago. Do you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1985 (Post 2489393)
The Muslim community needs to do what the Catholic community in Northern Ireland did with the IRA which is to come out and aggressively denounce ISIS and start to work with British authorities instead of posting @notinmyname posts on twitter and going back to their closed-off communities.

See #111 above

Capo 20.11.2015 17:10

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
There are A LOT of verses asking the muslims to fight against the non-believers, some of them are even very specific about beheading and killing. There is even a mention that a muslim that avoids his/her "duty" will be sent to hell. IT'S ALL WRITTEN IN THE SACRED TEXT OF THE MUSLIMS.

According to the CIA, between 15% and 25% of the Muslims worldwide agree with extreme ideologies. Since there are 1.8 billion of muslims, we are talking about up to 450 million people who think it's OK to kill christians or stone adulterous women to death. Just to clarify, these 450M people ARE NOT TERRORISTS or potential terrorists, but people who think "it's right" to follow what the Quran says.

How many of these 450M can potentially take real action? Very very few I guess. But 450M people is A LOT.

The UK needs to infiltrate people within the british mosques and at the first sight of hate promotion they need to act fiercely, expelling these "hate promoters" without pity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J2488 (Post 2489361)
Lol. I love it when people make this ridiculous argument. Its such a stupid conclusion.


Let say there is a terror cell in the UK consisting of 5 men.


There are three million (approx.) Muslims in the UK, more if you count kids.


5/3000000 = 0.000 0017%.


Now, how many of the 3 million do you believe are exposed to the 5 bad ones and know them particularly well? well, lets say these particular terrorists are popular guys, so 20.


20/2,999,995 = 0.000 06 % of muslims exposed to a terror cell.


Now, factor in the fact that the 5 bad ones will do everything they can to hide their intentions. they don't tell anyone they will kill people, nor do they broadcast it to the Muslim community. The chance of actually discovering genuine terrorists is proportional to their presence in the wider community. ie, 0.000 000 17%.


So, out of 3,000,000, you want 0.000 06% to help you find 0.000 0017%, with a 0.000 0017% chance of being successful?


If we assume they are able to hide their intentions from half of these 20 (which in turn, makes them very bad at their purpose, but lets assume they are popular but incompetent), that means there is at most, 10 people, in 2,999,995. Or, 0.000 003%.


So, these 0.000 003% are supposed to help find 0.000 0017%, with a 0.000 0017% success possibility?


If the british government, with thousands of analysts, can read every text message, scrutinise every mb of data, piggy-back every CCTV camera, listen in to every phone call, and observe thousands simultaneously, and they still cant find them, what chance does Amjad from the corner shop have?


Do you think muslims have a secret address book with the name and address of every terrorist in it, and theyre just stubbornly refusing to hand it over?


Do you think that all it takes is for an imam to stand up and say 'right lads, you've had your fun, but that's enough now, put down the pipe bomb and behave yourself', and overnight the problems will disappear?


I hear lots of this bullshit about 'oh, well they don't do anything about it'...what exactly do you want them to do about it? Find people that work incredibly hard not to be found, who look, act, and behave exactly the same as everyone else?


Or do you just want someone to blame, because you know they aren't in a position to defend themselves?


Urs Max 20.11.2015 17:18

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Capo (Post 2489414)
There are A LOT of verses asking the muslims to fight against the non-believers, some of them are even very specific about beheading and killing. There is even a mention that a muslim that avoids his/her "duty" will be sent to hell. IT'S ALL WRITTEN IN THE SACRED TEXT OF THE MUSLIMS.

According to the CIA, between 15% and 25% of the Muslims worldwide agree with extreme ideologies. Since there are 1.8 billion of muslims, we are talking about up to 450 million people who think it's OK to kill christians or stone adulterous women to death. Just to clarify, these 450M people ARE NOT TERRORISTS or potential terrorists, but people who think "it's right" to follow what the Quran says.

How many of these 450M can potentially take real action? Very very few I guess. But 450M people is A LOT.

The UK needs to infiltrate people within the british mosques and at the first sight of hate promotion they need to act fiercely, expelling these "hate promoters" without pity.

Source? Otherwise it's just utter bollocks.

J2488 20.11.2015 17:28

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Capo (Post 2489414)
There are A LOT of verses asking the muslims to fight against the non-believers, some of them are even very specific about beheading and killing. There is even a mention that a muslim that avoids his/her "duty" will be sent to hell. IT'S ALL WRITTEN IN THE SACRED TEXT OF THE MUSLIMS.

According to the CIA, between 15% and 25% of the Muslims worldwide agree with extreme ideologies. Since there are 1.8 billion of muslims, we are talking about up to 450 million people who think it's OK to kill christians or stone adulterous women to death. Just to clarify, these 450M people ARE NOT TERRORISTS or potential terrorists, but people who think "it's right" to follow what the Quran says.

How many of these 450M can potentially take real action? Very very few I guess. But 450M people is A LOT.

The UK needs to infiltrate people within the british mosques and at the first sight of hate promotion they need to act fiercely, expelling these "hate promoters" without pity.


Really?

People tend to ignore the fact that the Quran is also an account of what happened (or, if you so believe, didn't happen). A historical text book, or story book, so to speak. So, of course, it talks about glorious battles in which the armies of Muslims fought their persecutors. It happened to be in a time where the most common implement of war was a ruddy big sharp metal stick. There was lots of beheading at the time. But if you take a historical account, and use that as your basis for something entirely unrelated 1400 years later, you're a bit silly.


Its like someone using a Horrible Histories book, 'The Rotten Romans', for example, to judge every Italian living today. Its that ridiculous.


And I notice you ignored the most repeated quote when it comes to this:


'Who so ever takes the life of a single human being, it is as though he has taken the life of all humanity'.


The CIA said 15%? well, then its settled. Lord knows, they're an honest bunch of folk in Langley. Also, the statistic is that 15% understand why they did it. That's not even in the same postal code as agreeing with it.

Capo 20.11.2015 17:34

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 2489415)
Source? Otherwise it's just utter bollocks.

Source to the verses: Quran

15% - 25% (go to 1:30):


porsch1909 20.11.2015 17:39

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2488990)
I think we all should kept silent and be neither against or for creating a db tracking Muslims.

We should take porschs's example

Where did I say I am neither for or against anything?

Capo 20.11.2015 17:43

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by J2488 (Post 2489420)
Really?

People tend to ignore the fact that the Quran is also an account of what happened (or, if you so believe, didn't happen). A historical text book, or story book, so to speak. So, of course, it talks about glorious battles in which the armies of Muslims fought their persecutors. It happened to be in a time where the most common implement of war was a ruddy big sharp metal stick. There was lots of beheading at the time. But if you take a historical account, and use that as your basis for something entirely unrelated 1400 years later, you're a bit silly.


Its like someone using a Horrible Histories book, 'The Rotten Romans', for example, to judge every Italian living today. Its that ridiculous.


And I notice you ignored the most repeated quote when it comes to this:


'Who so ever takes the life of a single human being, it is as though he has taken the life of all humanity'.


The CIA said 15%? well, then its settled. Lord knows, they're an honest bunch of folk in Langley. Also, the statistic is that 15% understand why they did it. That's not even in the same postal code as agreeing with it.

Of course the Quran is mostly fiction, as is the bible. No one needs to be smart to conclude that. :rolleyes:

The point is that there are TONS AND TONS of crazy fundamentalist people out there, christians, jews, indus, etc., you name the shit. However, look at the number of terrorists attacks in the last 30 years, how many deaths and, mainly, the motivations behind them before you call me silly.

Another clarifying video by an ex-Mulsim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WLHEVrJKZI

Guest 20.11.2015 17:44

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
Actually, he wants them to wear armbands - I don't know if that's for real though. He's a freaking fascist (did I spell that one right?) wind bag.

Which reminds me of classic Archie Bunker - he called a fascist a fat chest!

Guest 20.11.2015 17:49

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Capo (Post 2489414)
<Some idiotic anti-muslim rhetoric >

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 2489415)
it's just utter bollocks.

Fixed that for you.

pilatus1 20.11.2015 17:50

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by J2488 (Post 2489420)
But if you take a historical account, and use that as your basis for something entirely unrelated 1400 years later, you're a bit silly.

Agreed. Funny (in a make me want to vomit kinda funny way) that it's still used to justify killing of other tribes, other Muslims, outsiders, nonbelievers, apostates, minorities TODAY. look at the middle east FFS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J2488 (Post 2489420)
Its like some one using a Horrible Histories book, 'The Rotten Romans', for example, to judge every Italian living today. Its that ridiculous.

Again, agreed. It's that ridiculous that the Koran is still thought of by so many as a holy book today. Do any Italians hold 'The Rotten Romans' as gospel?

Krist 20.11.2015 17:51

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by J2488 (Post 2489420)
People tend to ignore the fact that the Quran is also an account of what happened (or, if you so believe, didn't happen). A historical text book, or story book, so to speak.

Muslims believe that the Quran is literally the word of God. Every last letter of it. For them it's not a story book.
But most Muslims also don't have a clue about what is in the Quran. The Quran is written in Classic Arabic, which most Moslims don't understand. So many will recite Quran verses, even the whole book, without having any understanding of its meaning.
But what happens when a Muslim, who has been though all his life that the Quran is the inerrant word of God finds a copy of the Quran on the internet in his own native language and reads it? In the case of many young Mulsims they decide to travel to Syria and joing Isis.
Other Muslims decide that Islam needs a reformation, like Christianity went throught.
This guy has it spot on in my opinion:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-...b_5930764.html

We need radical Muslims, not moderates, but a different kind of radical. Radical reformers.

Guest 20.11.2015 17:52

Re: Donald Trump and Co
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by porsch1909 (Post 2489430)
Where did I say I am neither for or against anything?

You really need to brush up on basic trolling technique (and there I thought you were an expert). You failed to answer a question in one of the several hundred posts on the topic yesterday, so that means a refusal to commit which is the same as saying that you're not against it.

Don't you know anything? :msnwink:

Nil 20.11.2015 17:53

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 2489348)
I don't remember seeing you speak up against pedophiles, murder, rape, extremism, or a gazillion other things. By your own logic that makes you at least sympathetic with all of them.

Oh that's a good one, I'll use it too against idiomatic statements

adrianlondon 20.11.2015 17:54

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
You're all trying to reason with a poster whose user-id is short for ideasfixed.

It's really not worth it.

J2488 20.11.2015 17:58

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Firstly, your source is Brigitte Gabriel? Very impartial.
Secondly, your source claims her source is 'most intelligence services'. Not an actual source, just hearsay.


Now, her favourite phrase in that video is 'The peaceful majority were irrelevant'. She says this about the Germans, the Chinese, and the Japanese.


So lets follow that.


The KKK killed and lynched black people. The peaceful majority, are irrelevant. Thus, all white Christians should be considered party to their actions.


The Black Panthers killed white people. The peaceful majority, are irrelevant. Thus, all blacks should be considered party to their actions.


A small number of Hindus killed muslims in india. But the peaceful majority are irrelevant. Thus, all hindus must be party to those murders.


A small group of Sikhs assassinated Indira Ghnadi. But the peaceful majority are irrelevant. Thus, all Sikhs share the responsibility for her murder.


British troops killed 24 unarmed villagers in Malaysia. The peaceful majority are irrelevant. Thus, all brits should be considered party to that massacre.


American Soldiers killed Vietnamese civilians at My Lai. the peaceful majority are irrelevant. Thus, all americans should be considered party to that war crime.


Israeli soldiers killed an inordinate number of Palestinian children. The peaceful majority are irrelevant. Thus, all Israelis should be considered party to their actions.


Do you see how stupid that argument is? If you discount the majority, and then use a minority as a base for an opinion on the majority, guess what, every single human being is a terrorist, murderer, evil-sympathiser, raper, pillager, and all-round arsehole. Including the person who makes the opinion.

NotAllThere 20.11.2015 18:00

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by olygirl (Post 2488971)
Reading some FB posts from my friends in the US frightens me. The fear of Muslims and their solutions thereof is Hitler worthy.

You need some new US FB friends. One of mine posted
Remember that blaming the Syrian people for Paris is the same as blaming all white Oklahomans for the bombing of the Alfred P Murrah building.
and
16,121 Americans are killed each year by other Americans whom we allow to live right in our neighborhoods! We need to close the US border to ourselves immediately.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Capo (Post 2489435)
Of course the Quran is mostly fiction, as is the bible. No one needs to be smart to conclude that. ...

You're quite right, ignorance is what's required. I can't speak for the Quran, but the Bible only contains about 15 books that could fit into the category of "fictional" - i.e. they purport to be a record of events. The rest are letters, poetry, proverbs and the like.

Guest 20.11.2015 18:01

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
At the risk of being accused of overmoderating, I think we've seen enough of the anti-muslim posts - more than enough, in fact, so can I ask all those who can't resist posting such things (and those who goad them) to please refrain from here on in?

I'll leave this thread open for now, but if it starts to descend into more of the same then we may be forced to close it, and/or give more time-outs to those unable to control their typing fingers.

Thanks all.


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:58.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0