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  #421  
Old 16.08.2016, 14:25
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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So you think its okay to go at people with hatchets and harpoons?

Consider for a moment the inverse scenario. Some French guys go at muslims with hatchets and harpoons because they have been offended. Would you still be defending them? Or does your allegiance always automatically align with Muslims, right or wrong?


To be fair, these days its not unusual to see them go after an imam and his assistant with loaded weapon and kill them both in the street. I notice no EF thread on that. But lets ignore that for now.


Just saying.
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  #422  
Old 16.08.2016, 14:27
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You are right in as far as banning burkas, or banning minarets, does nothing to directly force Muslims to integrate or learn the language or lower the risk of them beiung radicalized.

As such it is window dressing.

In troubled times those in power are required to be seen to be doing something, as the alternative often appears to be to keep on doing as we have until now, and obviously that didn't work.

But sometimes when you have an angry lynch mob outside, giving them a token apeasement such as this may calm them down and make them go home as they feel that for once they are being listened to. It's ultra short termist thinking on the part of those in power, but so is basically everything they do.
I always wondered: isn't the West "a bit" arrogant if they imagine they could force every and each group to perfectly integrate/assimilate? What if they just let them be?
Maybe it's high time for France (and not only) to recognise the existence of minorities..;-)
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  #423  
Old 16.08.2016, 14:30
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Fixed that for ya


Why? It's a form of religious repression against women, that's not compatible with the Western values of society where women are equals to men. The burka in general should be banned from Europe.


Probably not, but swimming fully clothed could increase the risk of drowning.

You keep telling yourself that esto. Take the woman's choice out of the equation completely.


And no, having some clothing specially designed for swimming does not increase the risk of drowning - not knowing how to swim increases the risk of drowning. A person who can swim comfortably and safely without clothes can do so perfectly well with a burkini.


But again, ignore the basic facts of the matter and continue punching keys angrily and with spittle forthcoming. The world isn't yet quite shitty enough for you, is it?
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  #424  
Old 16.08.2016, 14:32
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Isn't it the West a bit arrogant if they imagine they could force every and each group to perfectly integrate/assimilate? What if they just let them be?
Maybe it's high time for France to recognise the existence of minorities..;-)


Logically, in times of high tensions and a powder-keg atmosphere, the logical thing to do is calm things down and not raise the stakes even higher by passing populist, meaningless, petty legislation.


Unless of course, I've missed something and banning burkinis is somehow going to stop IS.


"Its over lads, put down the RPGs and go home...they've banned burkinis on a small French beach town. There's no point carrying on now".
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  #425  
Old 16.08.2016, 14:33
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Isn't it the West a bit arrogant if they imagine they could force every and each group to perfectly integrate/assimilate? What if they just let them be?
Maybe it's high time for France to recognise the existence of minorities..;-)
Why should the majority make way for the minority?

Shouldn't people who choose to move to another country, doing so with full knowledge of that new country's cultural and moral codes, make an effort to slot into that country's ways — rather than demanding that everyone also adapt to their ways?
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  #426  
Old 16.08.2016, 14:36
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Shouldn't people who choose to move to another country, doing so with full knowledge of that new country's cultural and moral codes, make an effort to slot into that country's ways — rather than demanding that everyone also adapt to their ways?
You ask that as a moderator on EF!!

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  #427  
Old 16.08.2016, 14:36
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Shouldn't people who choose to move to another country, doing so with full knowledge of that new country's cultural and moral codes, make an effort to slot into that country's ways — rather than demanding that everyone also adapt to their ways?
Many of those involved in this discussion live in France or elsewhere for already a few generations.
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  #428  
Old 16.08.2016, 14:40
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I always wondered: isn't the West "a bit" arrogant if they imagine they could force every and each group to perfectly integrate/assimilate? What if they just let them be?
Maybe it's high time for France (and not only) to recognise the existence of minorities..;-)
I don't think they imagined anything. This precisely is their problem. They always supposed any problems would somehow solve themselves if they waited long enough. And now that three generations down the road that still hasn't happened they think they need to step up and pretend to solve a problem they have long been pretending they didn't have.

So it's a step forward in as much as they are finally admitting they have a problem.

But its pretty meaningless as the solution they are proposing isn't doing anything.
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  #429  
Old 16.08.2016, 14:41
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You keep telling yourself that esto. Take the woman's choice out of the equation completely?
Religious brainwashing over many generations leading to normalisation of things like this is not truly having a "choice". Choosing not to wear one would subject many women to the pressure and of the displeasure of their sposes and/or communities. At least having a state ban means that the women themselves cannot be blamed for The Almighty Sin of... gasp... showing their faces in society.
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  #430  
Old 16.08.2016, 14:59
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Religious brainwashing over many generations leading to normalisation of things like this is not truly having a "choice". Choosing not to wear one would subject many women to the pressure and of the displeasure of their sposes and/or communities. At least having a state ban means that the women themselves cannot be blamed for The Almighty Sin of... gasp... showing their faces in society.


And can you point to the interviews you have done with these multitudes of women that corroborate your view?


And can you also point out why you think a bitty little municipal law would have any more impact than a sheikh, who has spent years studying their religion, actually passing a fatwa against the burkha?


Sheikh Aedh Al-Garni issued a fatwa that Muslim women may forego the burkha in countries where it is banned or when wearing it may pose a danger to the woman. Considering the rise of islamophobia, it seems no country in Europe is exempt from presenting that danger.


Do you even know the difference between religion and culture?


And lastly, are you so daft so as to think that a municipal law will be enough to stamp out its use, in the cases you claim? In such a rare family (and I've never met one), if they were so serious about wearing it, what impact will a municipal law have? Bugger all. They're more likely to move to the next town where it isn't banned, or in extreme cases, prevent the woman going out at all, rather then throw their hands up, accept defeat and change their ways.


In so many ways, it is such a stupid law, I am amazed that apparently intelligent people thought it was a good idea.
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  #431  
Old 16.08.2016, 15:04
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

From Sabria Jawhar:


"There is no reason to pass laws to ban the burqa. The climate of fear is so prevalent today that wearing the burqa will slowly disappear out of necessity of survival. There will be a price, though. Some Muslim women will return home without a Western education and that will make bridging the gap between Muslims and non-Muslims more difficult. This fear also forces Muslims who want to live in the West to conform to Western appearances. It will also cause resentment and make the fight against religious extremism more difficult. People are not inclined to help governments that pass abusive laws. Muslim women will continue to fear harassment from non-Muslim. And non-Muslims will continue to fear Muslims wearing traditional clothing and hijabs because it represents beliefs alien to them."


A pretty succinct summary, I think.
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  #432  
Old 16.08.2016, 15:14
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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And can you point to the interviews you have done with these multitudes of women that corroborate your view?

And can you also point out why you think a bitty little municipal law would have any more impact than a sheikh, who has spent years studying their religion, actually passing a fatwa against the burkha?

Sheikh Aedh Al-Garni issued a fatwa that Muslim women may forego the burkha in countries where it is banned or when wearing it may pose a danger to the woman. Considering the rise of islamophobia, it seems no country in Europe is exempt from presenting that danger.

Do you even know the difference between religion and culture?

And lastly, are you so daft so as to think that a municipal law will be enough to stamp out its use, in the cases you claim? In such a rare family (and I've never met one), if they were so serious about wearing it, what impact will a municipal law have? Bugger all. They're more likely to move to the next town where it isn't banned, or in extreme cases, prevent the woman going out at all, rather then throw their hands up, accept defeat and change their ways.

In so many ways, it is such a stupid law, I am amazed that apparently intelligent people thought it was a good idea.
Cutting through the ranting nonsense of the majority of your post to the one or two lucid questions within it; I it is illegal to wear it one in then it cannot legally be worn without penalty. Yes, I think that will help. Even the Saudi embassy publicly urged its citizens to confirm to the Swiss ban. As for whether the burka is religious or cultural that is something hotly contested even among Islamic scholars, but in the end as long as it continues to promote oppression of women then what difference does that really make? Either way it is sexist, it is non-integrative and in my eyes has no place in Western society.
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  #433  
Old 16.08.2016, 15:18
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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From Sabria Jawhar:


"There is no reason to pass laws to ban the burqa. The climate of fear is so prevalent today that wearing the burqa will slowly disappear out of necessity of survival. There will be a price, though. Some Muslim women will return home without a Western education and that will make bridging the gap between Muslims and non-Muslims more difficult. This fear also forces Muslims who want to live in the West to conform to Western appearances. It will also cause resentment and make the fight against religious extremism more difficult. People are not inclined to help governments that pass abusive laws. Muslim women will continue to fear harassment from non-Muslim. And non-Muslims will continue to fear Muslims wearing traditional clothing and hijabs because it represents beliefs alien to them."


A pretty succinct summary, I think.
Forcing people to wear or not to wear certain clothing is usually a bad idea, Ataturk's turkey being the exception.

However - muslims in the west wearing traditional clothes are suspicious because their beliefs (Holy war, racism, misogyny, anti gay) are alien to current western values.
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  #434  
Old 16.08.2016, 15:33
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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However - muslims in the west wearing traditional clothes are suspicious because their beliefs (Holy war, racism, misogyny, anti gay) are alien to current western values.
Interesting that you don't include equally alien Ultra-Orthodox Jewish values and beliefs?
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  #435  
Old 16.08.2016, 15:34
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Cutting through the ranting nonsense of the majority of your post to the one or two lucid questions within it; I it is illegal to wear it one in then it cannot legally be worn without penalty. Yes, I think that will help. Even the Saudi embassy publicly urged its citizens to confirm to the Swiss ban. As for whether the burka is religious or cultural that is something hotly contested even among Islamic scholars, but in the end as long as it continues to promote oppression of women then what difference does that really make? Either way it is sexist, it is non-integrative and in my eyes has no place in Western society.

Idiocy. If somebody is being forced to wear it, than those that are doing the forcing, are not going to be swayed by a municipal law. If the aim is to aid integration, guess what, you failed. Those being forced to wear it will simply be forced to stay indoors. Fail Number 1.


The Saudi embassy does not speak for all Muslims. Can you please get that ridiculous notion out of your head - Saudi Islam is not the same as European Islam. Fail number 2.


The burka is not contested among scholars in Europe at all - all mainstream scholars agree that the burka itself is not compulsory. there is a world of difference between modesty, which is required, compared to the burkha, which is a cultural phenomenon originating from SE Asia. Fail Number 3.


This line about promoting oppression of women is getting ironic, considering you are talking about legislation which directly restricts the clothing women can wear. Fail number 4.


A woman who chooses to wear a skimpy bikini in public is no more oppressed due to her clothing than a woman wearing a burka. If your aim is to stamp out oppression of women, than pass legislation against that. Come up with a strategy that actually does that, instead of one which will basically imprison such women. It isn't the burka which does the oppressing, it is the oppressing force.


Is this law really about 'freedom for women' or more about simply getting these burka-clad women off the street so cry-baby Europeans wont have to see them?
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  #436  
Old 16.08.2016, 15:35
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Interesting that you don't include equally alien Ultra-Orthodox Jewish values and beliefs?
Knowing pashosh, not surprising at all.
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  #437  
Old 16.08.2016, 15:38
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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From Sabria Jawhar:


"There is no reason to pass laws to ban the burqa. The climate of fear is so prevalent today that wearing the burqa will slowly disappear out of necessity of survival. There will be a price, though. Some Muslim women will return home without a Western education and that will make bridging the gap between Muslims and non-Muslims more difficult. This fear also forces Muslims who want to live in the West to conform to Western appearances. It will also cause resentment and make the fight against religious extremism more difficult. People are not inclined to help governments that pass abusive laws. Muslim women will continue to fear harassment from non-Muslim. And non-Muslims will continue to fear Muslims wearing traditional clothing and hijabs because it represents beliefs alien to them."


A pretty succinct summary, I think.
Is this conformation not true of Western people who travel to muslim places OR ELSE?

Do muslim women fear retaliation from the Western people or from their own families?

It is illegal in some places for women to go out in public uncovered, and what happens to them if they refuse?

It is one thing if citizens of other countries visit here and wear their traditional garb, and another issue if they decide to settle here and continue to 100% wear something else. It's gives visual cues of not integrating, the same way one gives auditory cues of not integrating, by refusing to learn the language of their adoptive country and expect people to treat them and understand them.
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  #438  
Old 16.08.2016, 15:40
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Interesting that you don't include equally alien Ultra-Orthodox Jewish values and beliefs?
Or those turban and/or Dhoti wearing Indians?

Of course the Jews gave up terrorism a long time ago
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  #439  
Old 16.08.2016, 15:47
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Idiocy. If somebody is being forced to wear it, than those that are doing the forcing, are not going to be swayed by a municipal law. If the aim is to aid integration, guess what, you failed. Those being forced to wear it will simply be forced to stay indoors. Fail Number 1.

The Saudi embassy does not speak for all Muslims. Can you please get that ridiculous notion out of your head - Saudi Islam is not the same as European Islam. Fail number 2.

The burka is not contested among scholars in Europe at all - all mainstream scholars agree that the burka itself is not compulsory. there is a world of difference between modesty, which is required, compared to the burkha, which is a cultural phenomenon originating from SE Asia. Fail Number 3.

This line about promoting oppression of women is getting ironic, considering you are talking about legislation which directly restricts the clothing women can wear. Fail number 4.

A woman who chooses to wear a skimpy bikini in public is no more oppressed due to her clothing than a woman wearing a burka. If your aim is to stamp out oppression of women, than pass legislation against that. Come up with a strategy that actually does that, instead of one which will basically imprison such women. It isn't the burka which does the oppressing, it is the oppressing force.

Is this law really about 'freedom for women' or more about simply getting these burka-clad women off the street so cry-baby Europeans wont have to see them?
Lets just agree to disagree as I really have no time or will to engage in circular debate, and in the end it doesn't matter if you see my perspective or not.
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  #440  
Old 16.08.2016, 15:48
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Interesting that you don't include equally alien Ultra-Orthodox Jewish values and beliefs?
Your comment would make sense in the very short thread discussing Ultra orthodox terrorist attacks.

Ultra Orthodox jewish values are also alien to current western thinking. but they keep their values to themselves and don't expect others to conform to them. They are usually extremly non violent.

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Knowing pashosh, not surprising at all.
Ad hominem from a Terror sympathiser.
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