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  #441  
Old 16.08.2016, 15:53
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Is this conformation not true of Western people who travel to muslim places OR ELSE?

Do muslim women fear retaliation from the Western people or from their own families?

It is illegal in some places for women to go out in public uncovered, and what happens to them if they refuse?

It is one thing if citizens of other countries visit here and wear their traditional garb, and another issue if they decide to settle here and continue to 100% wear something else. It's gives visual cues of not integrating, the same way one gives auditory cues of not integrating, by refusing to learn the language of their adoptive country and expect people to treat them and understand them.
Ah the old 'they do it so why cant we' argument. Makes complete sense, and is a perfectly good argument, as long as you stop claiming to be 'better' than those countries. Is this the case?

I wager in Europe, they fear more retaliation from 'western people' as you say. I like how you completely discount the possibility of any burka clad woman being a 'western' person. Because wearing one automatically reduces you to being a non-western savage, right? I suspect you didn't make this distinction consciously, but that makes it no less poisonous.

I was not aware integration was measured by how accurately you subscribed to the local garb. Tell me, if I ever move to Munich, will I be looked down upon unless I fill my wardrobe with lederhosen? Because that is the local garb, right? everyone in Munich wears lederhosen all the time.

What you choose to wear or not wear is no indicator of integration. claiming that it hinders integration is lazy and wrong. language is by far a more potent indicator, yet in most cases, the decision as to whether a woman has 'integrated' is based on her clothing - how is that acceptable?

Can someone be integrated if they wear the same as others, but sacrifice small neighbour dogs to their ancestors in their back garden?

Without even talking to such a woman, or observing her habits, how is it possible for any reasonable person to make any sort of judgement on the level of integration?

Its so tragic its almost funny.

(PS, if you do choose to observe a woman to measure her level if integrated-ness, please do so legally and respectfully. I accept no responsibility for you getting arrested for voyeurism)
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  #442  
Old 16.08.2016, 15:57
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Forcing people to wear or not to wear certain clothing is usually a bad idea, Ataturk's turkey being the exception.

However - muslims in the west wearing traditional clothes are suspicious because their beliefs (Holy war, racism, misogyny, anti gay) are alien to current western values.

Interesting - will you similarly condemn these orthodox jews, who do the same thing with their dress patterns?


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7190281.html


Incidentally, they also refuse to speak English, consider English culture an 'evil culture', consider arranged marriage the norm, and consider it acceptable to expel pupils from (their exclusive) schools if their mothers drop them off.


Like peas in a pod :-)
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  #443  
Old 16.08.2016, 15:57
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Your comment would make sense in the very short thread discussing Ultra orthodox terrorist attacks.

Ultra Orthodox jewish values are also alien to current western thinking. but they keep their values to themselves and don't expect others to conform to them. They are usually extremly non violent.
And that is the point, most religious people with sincerely held beliefs are similarly non violent because they know the punishment for taking innocent life.

None of the recent French terrorists came from religious backgrounds, for many it was a paucity of faith coupled with a background of petty crime or mental illness which led them into the arms of ISIS et al
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  #444  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:07
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Interesting - will you similarly condemn these orthodox jews, who do the same thing with their dress patterns?


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7190281.html


Incidentally, they also refuse to speak English, consider English culture an 'evil culture', consider arranged marriage the norm, and consider it acceptable to expel pupils from (their exclusive) schools if their mothers drop them off.


Like peas in a pod :-)
There is a difference between Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jews like the Charedi community that is the subject of the article.

To put it in context it is like you describing Christians by referencing the Salvation Army (they wear uniforms and collect money!)
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  #445  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:13
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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And that is the point, most religious people with sincerely held beliefs are similarly non violent because they know the punishment for taking innocent life.

None of the recent French terrorists came from religious backgrounds, for many it was a paucity of faith coupled with a background of petty crime or mental illness which led them into the arms of ISIS et al
I wish your inocence would be supported by reality. alas, it is not. Pick any Arab country to disprove your point. Arab countries are deeply religious AND very violent. Religion and socialism are no antidote for Violence.

@J2488 - see my previous post.
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  #446  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:15
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Cutting through the ranting nonsense of the majority of your post to the one or two lucid questions within it; I it is illegal to wear it one in then it cannot legally be worn without penalty. Yes, I think that will help. Even the Saudi embassy publicly urged its citizens to confirm to the Swiss ban in Ticino. As for whether the burka is religious or cultural that is something hotly contested even among Islamic scholars, but in the end as long as it continues to promote oppression of women then what difference does that really make? Either way it is sexist, it is non-integrative and in my eyes has no place in Western society.
FTFY

I don't think you can reasonably make that distinction, it's like trying to determine whether Xmas is a religious or a cultural thing in the western world.

Burkas are a symptom and not the disease, that's why banning them doesn't help equality. A husband who forces his wife to wear one and (mis)treats her accordingly won't change his behavior, nor will she suddenly feel empowered.
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  #447  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:18
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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There is a difference between Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jews like the Charedi community that is the subject of the article.

To put it in context it is like you describing Christians by referencing the Salvation Army (they wear uniforms and collect money!)



But that's the point - passing laws to control a tiny minority of a population, within a separate greater population, rarely ends well.


Passing a law to prohibit a small number of Muslim women wearing an item of clothing in public, when Muslims themselves are a small segment of an overall population does not scream 'greater good'.


If Charedi Jews were banned from wearing what they wanted to, there would be righteous outrage. claims of anti-Semitism would be flying left, right and centre, and such legislation would and should be, rightfully, shot down. The same principles should apply, regardless of the religion in question.
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  #448  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:21
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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FTFY

I don't think you can reasonably make that distinction, it's like trying to determine whether Xmas is a religious or a cultural thing in the western world.

Burkas are a symptom and not the disease, that's why banning them doesn't help equality. A husband who forces his wife to wear one and (mis)treats her accordingly won't change his behavior, nor will she suddenly feel empowered.
It doesn't harm equality either. No-one can force people to change their medieval ways of thinking or the way they treat their wives in the privacy of their own homes, but we can target and gradually erode what is within our power to change, and burkas in public places are definitely in that category.
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  #449  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:23
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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And that is the point, most religious people with sincerely held beliefs are similarly non violent because they know the punishment for taking innocent life.
The point here is that a set of religious belief are more likely to conduce/justify violence than others ar this point in time. I hate to agree with pashosh but u are at best disingenous regarding the status of those beliefs.
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  #450  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:23
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I wish your inocence would be supported by reality. alas, it is not. Pick any Arab country to disprove your point. Arab countries are deeply religious AND very violent. Religion and socialism are no antidote for Violence.

@J2488 - see my previous post.


Interesting. Do you consider Israel to be an Arab country too? Lord knows it has lots of Arabs, is a deeply religious country, and hardly the bastion of peace in the world.
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  #451  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:24
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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The point here is that a set of religious belief are more likely to conduce/justify violence than others ar this point in time. I hate to agree with pashosh but u are at best disingenous regarding the status of those beliefs.



1.6billion.


If Islam justified violence, we wouldn't be talking about terrorism by lone wolves, we would be talking about war in the streets.
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  #452  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:30
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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1.6billion.


If Islam justified violence, we wouldn't be talking about terrorism by lone wolves, we would be talking about war in the streets.
Wht part of " are more likely to conduct" did you not get?
Just take for example the pew polls regarding the attitudes towards apostacy( or drawing the prophet, etc). Those are indeed conductive to violence.

Those ideas that the appropriate punishment for apostasy is death did not generate in a vaccuum, nor in buddhist teaching.
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  #453  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:31
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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...
I wager in Europe, they fear more retaliation from 'western people' as you say. I like how you completely discount the possibility of any burka clad woman being a 'western' person. Because wearing one automatically reduces you to being a non-western savage, right? I suspect you didn't make this distinction consciously, but that makes it no less poisonous.

I was not aware integration was measured by how accurately you subscribed to the local garb. Tell me, if I ever move to Munich, will I be looked down upon unless I fill my wardrobe with lederhosen? Because that is the local garb, right? everyone in Munich wears lederhosen all the time.

What you choose to wear or not wear is no indicator of integration. claiming that it hinders integration is lazy and wrong. language is by far a more potent indicator, yet in most cases, the decision as to whether a woman has 'integrated' is based on her clothing - how is that acceptable?

Can someone be integrated if they wear the same as others, but sacrifice small neighbour dogs to their ancestors in their back garden?

Without even talking to such a woman, or observing her habits, how is it possible for any reasonable person to make any sort of judgement on the level of integration?

...

Personally I would love it if all individuals of a society started dressing as uniquely as they see fit.

But we aren't living in my type of utopia, and if all of a sudden a person starts wearing something completly unusual within their society, society will deem them cuckoo, or not belonging. Tell me you don't do a double-take when you see someone dressed out of the ordinary.

P.S. I hope you aren't a troll.
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  #454  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:42
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Personally I would love it if all individuals of a society started dressing as uniquely as they see fit.

But we aren't living in my type of utopia, and if all of a sudden a person starts wearing something completly unusual within their society, society will deem them cuckoo, or not belonging. Tell me you don't do a double-take when you see someone dressed out of the ordinary.

P.S. I hope you aren't a troll.

Honestly? My curiosity is aroused. If I see somebody wearing something outlandish I will wonder why and if I cant figure it out, I will either strike up a conversation, or do my own research, knowing full well that it could be completely wrong.


what I will not do is assume they mean me or my way of life any harm, though. I like to think the way I live my life is more secure than being rocked to its core foundations due to somebody else's dress or practices.


I travelled on a flight some time ago where a (fairly old) jewish gentleman near me placed a bag over his head, and brought it down over his whole body. I didn't think he was about to launch a poison gas attack, but I did get curious. Turned out he was doing it because his specific sect of Judaism prevented him flying over cemeteries. Interesting, unusual, but in no way a threat.
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Old 16.08.2016, 16:44
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Wht part of " are more likely to conduct" did you not get?
Just take for example the pew polls regarding the attitudes towards apostacy( or drawing the prophet, etc). Those are indeed conductive to violence.

Those ideas that the appropriate punishment for apostasy is death did not generate in a vaccuum, nor in buddhist teaching.

Even a significant minority of 1.6 billion, and we would still be talking about rivers of blood.


wait, was that enoch powell? he must be rolling in his grave, that I would use his words so flippantly!
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  #456  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:45
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Interesting. Do you consider Israel to be an Arab country too? Lord knows it has lots of Arabs, is a deeply religious country, and hardly the bastion of peace in the world.
Israeli Muslim Arabs are much more likely to commit violent crime than any other group. Israeli Christian Arabs much less likely.

btw - Religious Muslim women and relgious Jewish orthodox women wear very modest swimming clothes. never caused problems.
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  #457  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:45
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Personally I would love it if all individuals of a society started dressing as uniquely as they see fit.

But we aren't living in my type of utopia, and if all of a sudden a person starts wearing something completly unusual within their society, society will deem them cuckoo, or not belonging. Tell me you don't do a double-take when you see someone dressed out of the ordinary.

P.S. I hope you aren't a troll.

PS, I am most certainly a troll - in so far as I am stubborn, pig-headed, and live very close to a prominent bridge.
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  #458  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:47
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Israeli Muslim Arabs are much more likely to commit violent crime than any other group. Israeli Christian Arabs much less likely.

btw - Religious Muslim women and relgious Jewish orthodox women wear very modest swimming clothes. never caused problems.


Israeli Jews (especially those connected to a certain military outfit) are about as likely, I would say. Lets not pretend they're innocent children, caught in the crossfire.


And yet, in some unknown beach in France, its enough to pass legislation!!
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  #459  
Old 16.08.2016, 16:49
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Even a significant minority of 1.6 billion, and we would still be talking about rivers of blood.


wait, was that enoch powell? he must be rolling in his grave, that I would use his words so flippantly!
Yep. Isis, or muslim persecution of minorities in pakistan... or saudi arabia.mm you name it. There is a disproportionate amount of religious enabled violence. Or repressive action.
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Old 16.08.2016, 17:07
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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It doesn't harm equality either.
Perhaps (not sure), but that's a rather poor reason for any ban. We call ourselves (relatively) free, with religious and personal freedom being among the topmost priorities. I don't see how a burka/niqab ban can be justified considering the fact that a ban of covering one's face during a "Demo" (?march?) has been rejected multiple times on the federal level.

Integration doesn't happen because coercion is used, what it does take is contact, talk, education, etc. to have people leave their individual bubble - a carrot if you will. For those few where that doesn't work I have no problems at all with using power, but that should be the exception rather than the rule.
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No-one can force people to change their medieval ways of thinking or the way they treat their wives in the privacy of their own homes, but we can target and gradually erode what is within our power to change, and burkas in public places are definitely in that category.
The effect of coercion often is a calm surface but the repulsion underneath, perhaps even thirst for revenge, remains or even increases. The more people are subjected to these effects the more likely we are to help foster the next extremists, to not say terrorists. We've seen enough examples in the recent past where pressure has built over time until the attacker exploded.
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