Ah the old 'they do it so why cant we' argument. Makes complete sense, and is a perfectly good argument, as long as you stop claiming to be 'better' than those countries. Is this the case?

I wager in Europe, they fear more retaliation from 'western people' as you say. I like how you completely discount the possibility of any burka clad woman being a 'western' person. Because wearing one automatically reduces you to being a non-western savage, right? I suspect you didn't make this distinction consciously, but that makes it no less poisonous.

I was not aware integration was measured by how accurately you subscribed to the local garb. Tell me, if I ever move to Munich, will I be looked down upon unless I fill my wardrobe with lederhosen? Because that is the local garb, right? everyone in Munich wears lederhosen all the time.

What you choose to wear or not wear is no indicator of integration. claiming that it hinders integration is lazy and wrong. language is by far a more potent indicator, yet in most cases, the decision as to whether a woman has 'integrated' is based on her clothing - how is that acceptable?

Can someone be integrated if they wear the same as others, but sacrifice small neighbour dogs to their ancestors in their back garden?

Without even talking to such a woman, or observing her habits, how is it possible for any reasonable person to make any sort of judgement on the level of integration?

Its so tragic its almost funny.

(PS, if you do choose to observe a woman to measure her level if integrated-ness, please do so legally and respectfully. I accept no responsibility for you getting arrested for voyeurism)

Interesting - will you similarly condemn these orthodox jews, who do the same thing with their dress patterns?


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7190281.html


Incidentally, they also refuse to speak English, consider English culture an 'evil culture', consider arranged marriage the norm, and consider it acceptable to expel pupils from (their exclusive) schools if their mothers drop them off.


Like peas in a pod :-)

And that is the point, most religious people with sincerely held beliefs are similarly non violent because they know the punishment for taking innocent life.

None of the recent French terrorists came from religious backgrounds, for many it was a paucity of faith coupled with a background of petty crime or mental illness which led them into the arms of ISIS et al

There is a difference between Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jews like the Charedi community that is the subject of the article.

To put it in context it is like you describing Christians by referencing the Salvation Army (they wear uniforms and collect money!)

I wish your inocence would be supported by reality. alas, it is not. Pick any Arab country to disprove your point. Arab countries are deeply religious AND very violent. Religion and socialism are no antidote for Violence.

@J2488 - see my previous post.

FTFY

I don't think you can reasonably make that distinction, it's like trying to determine whether Xmas is a religious or a cultural thing in the western world.

Burkas are a symptom and not the disease, that's why banning them doesn't help equality. A husband who forces his wife to wear one and (mis)treats her accordingly won't change his behavior, nor will she suddenly feel empowered.

But that's the point - passing laws to control a tiny minority of a population, within a separate greater population, rarely ends well.


Passing a law to prohibit a small number of Muslim women wearing an item of clothing in public, when Muslims themselves are a small segment of an overall population does not scream 'greater good'.


If Charedi Jews were banned from wearing what they wanted to, there would be righteous outrage. claims of anti-Semitism would be flying left, right and centre, and such legislation would and should be, rightfully, shot down. The same principles should apply, regardless of the religion in question.

It doesn't harm equality either. No-one can force people to change their medieval ways of thinking or the way they treat their wives in the privacy of their own homes, but we can target and gradually erode what is within our power to change, and burkas in public places are definitely in that category.

The point here is that a set of religious belief are more likely to conduce/justify violence than others ar this point in time. I hate to agree with pashosh but u are at best disingenous regarding the status of those beliefs.

Interesting. Do you consider Israel to be an Arab country too? Lord knows it has lots of Arabs, is a deeply religious country, and hardly the bastion of peace in the world.

1.6billion.


If Islam justified violence, we wouldn't be talking about terrorism by lone wolves, we would be talking about war in the streets.

Wht part of " are more likely to conduct" did you not get?
Just take for example the pew polls regarding the attitudes towards apostacy( or drawing the prophet, etc). Those are indeed conductive to violence.

Those ideas that the appropriate punishment for apostasy is death did not generate in a vaccuum, nor in buddhist teaching.

Personally I would love it if all individuals of a society started dressing as uniquely as they see fit.

But we aren't living in my type of utopia, and if all of a sudden a person starts wearing something completly unusual within their society, society will deem them cuckoo, or not belonging. Tell me you don't do a double-take when you see someone dressed out of the ordinary.

P.S. I hope you aren't a troll.

Honestly? My curiosity is aroused. If I see somebody wearing something outlandish I will wonder why and if I cant figure it out, I will either strike up a conversation, or do my own research, knowing full well that it could be completely wrong.


what I will not do is assume they mean me or my way of life any harm, though. I like to think the way I live my life is more secure than being rocked to its core foundations due to somebody else's dress or practices.


I travelled on a flight some time ago where a (fairly old) jewish gentleman near me placed a bag over his head, and brought it down over his whole body. I didn't think he was about to launch a poison gas attack, but I did get curious. Turned out he was doing it because his specific sect of Judaism prevented him flying over cemeteries. Interesting, unusual, but in no way a threat.

Even a significant minority of 1.6 billion, and we would still be talking about rivers of blood.


wait, was that enoch powell? he must be rolling in his grave, that I would use his words so flippantly!

Israeli Muslim Arabs are much more likely to commit violent crime than any other group. Israeli Christian Arabs much less likely.

btw - Religious Muslim women and relgious Jewish orthodox women wear very modest swimming clothes. never caused problems.

PS, I am most certainly a troll - in so far as I am stubborn, pig-headed, and live very close to a prominent bridge.

Israeli Jews (especially those connected to a certain military outfit) are about as likely, I would say. Lets not pretend they're innocent children, caught in the crossfire.


And yet, in some unknown beach in France, its enough to pass legislation!!

Yep. Isis, or muslim persecution of minorities in pakistan... or saudi arabia.mm you name it. There is a disproportionate amount of religious enabled violence. Or repressive action.

Perhaps (not sure), but that's a rather poor reason for any ban. We call ourselves (relatively) free, with religious and personal freedom being among the topmost priorities. I don't see how a burka/niqab ban can be justified considering the fact that a ban of covering one's face during a "Demo" (?march?) has been rejected multiple times on the federal level.

Integration doesn't happen because coercion is used, what it does take is contact, talk, education, etc. to have people leave their individual bubble - a carrot if you will. For those few where that doesn't work I have no problems at all with using power, but that should be the exception rather than the rule.
The effect of coercion often is a calm surface but the repulsion underneath, perhaps even thirst for revenge, remains or even increases. The more people are subjected to these effects the more likely we are to help foster the next extremists, to not say terrorists. We've seen enough examples in the recent past where pressure has built over time until the attacker exploded.