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  #481  
Old 17.08.2016, 09:18
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

I went for a hike yesterday after work, and it was quite a big one. By the time I got home I was exhausted and ready or bed. Just then, this little beauty popped up:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7193086.html

The Cliff notes:

-The AP analyzed the Isis entry form documents of around 4,030 foreign recruits who crossed into Syria when the group was rapidly expanding and seizing territory in Iraq and Syria in 2013 and 2014. At that time, the CIA estimated the extremist group had between 20,000 and 31,500 fighters across Iraq and Syria.

-The AP analysis of the ISIS recruitment forms have indicated that the vast majority of recruits for ISIS consider their own level of knowledge about Islam to be 'basic'. this was the lowest level they could choose. 70% considered their knowledge basic, while 24% considered their own level 'Intermediate'. Only 5% self categorised as having a deep understanding of the religion.

-Of all of ISISs foot soldiers, the vast majority of volunteer suicide bombers came from those who considered their knowledge basic. The self categorised 'advanced' level almost never volunteered, suggesting they were not convinced it was legal, according to a study by the US military's Combating Terrorism Center, an academic institution at the United States Military Academy. "If martyrdom is seen as the highest religious calling, then a reasonable expectation would be that the people with the most knowledge about Islamic law (Sharia) would desire to carry out these operations with greater frequency," said the report

-One of the men identified, Karim Mohammad-Aggad, was one of a group of 10 from Strasbourg. He described his own recruitment process as 'bar-hopping' with a senior recruiter, Mohammed Fares. Fares apparently used very little religion and mainly used 'smooth-talk- to convince them to join IS. most of the recruits believed they were going to fight Bashar Al Assad.

-Said Mr Aggad: "My religious beliefs had nothing to do with my departure."

-Expressing a common sentiment shared by many Europeans of North African descent, Mohammed-Aggad told a court he felt like an immigrant in Algeria and "a dirty Arab" in France

-When asked about Sharia and how ISIS implements it, Mohammad-Aggad, a former gas station attendant, appeared dumbfounded, saying repeatedly: "I don't have the knowledge to answer the question". He knew very little about sharia.

-Another fighter was asked if the beheadings adhered to Islamic law. He replied 'I don't have the credentials to answer that'.

-2 british fighters for ISIS order two books from amazon to prepare for their voyage: 'The Koran for dummies' and 'Islam for Dummies'

-Patrick Skinner, a former CIA case officer with extensive experience with Mideast extremist organizations, said some people claim allegiance to Isis out of religious belief, but that most who join, including those from the West, are people "reaching for a sense of belonging, a sense of notoriety, a sense of excitement." "Religion is an afterthought," said Mr Skinner

-A close look at the Isis group's top commanders shows that many had no religious credentials but once held senior positions under Saddam Hussein's secular Baathist government


-Said one gay recruit of ISIS: 'People like me were tricked into something that they didn't understand. I never meant to end up with IS.'
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  #482  
Old 17.08.2016, 09:24
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

It's not the place of the State to ban any religious dress. Private companies, schools, hospitals etc. should have the ability to prohibit it within the workplace. Same goes for praying at work.
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  #483  
Old 17.08.2016, 09:33
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

I don't see how it matters if a foot soldier (which ISIS need to recruit a lot of, by any means necessary) is not a devout scholar of Islam before blowing themselves up. The fact is they are voluntarily doing it in the name of ISIS, which is masterminded by those who believe they are fighting a holy war and who want an end to Western values. It's those people in the higher echelons who need to be identified and stopped in order to defeat this organisation, and the foot soldiers are just expendable tools and cannon fodder to them.
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  #484  
Old 17.08.2016, 09:44
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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ill tell you when you tell me how islam makes this shitty world a better place.

imagine if you will:
tomorrow. line in the sand. side A is a land with no islam whatsoever, side B is a land that may be influenced or ruled by islamic values. everybody gets to choose once and for all with no further contact between sides.

win-win right? or who loses what?
Sure, lets imagine that. But are the Muslims allowed to take with them all their contributions?
Including, but not limited to:
-the concept of further education, and 'Universities'
-the concept of hospitals, and the practice of modern surgery, the modern understanding of the circulatory system, and the practice of vaccination
-The idea of soap to clean oneself
-the science of astronomy and the understanding of celestial bodies
-the chemistry practices of distillation, crystallisation, and filtration
-the concept of heavier-than-air flight
-Coffee
-Toothhbrushes
-Algebra (named after the guy, for crying out loud)
-the scientific field of Optics (and by extension, glasses)
-Music
-The motorised Crank
-Mosaic art

The side without Muslims is beginning to sound like quite a smelly unpleasant place to be. At the very least, they will have terrible halitosis.

But sure, you go live on that side.
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  #485  
Old 17.08.2016, 09:46
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I don't see how it matters if a foot soldier (which ISIS need to recruit a lot of, by any means necessary) is not a devout scholar of Islam before blowing themselves up. The fact is they are voluntarily doing it in the name of ISIS, which is masterminded by those who believe they are fighting a holy war and who want an end to Western values. It's those people in the higher echelons who need to be identified and stopped in order to defeat this organisation, and the foot soldiers are just expendable tools and cannon fodder to them.

Christ almighty, did you even read it?


The leaders of ISIS aren't religious scholars - they're secular ex-Baathists from Saddams army.
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  #486  
Old 17.08.2016, 09:51
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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-Coffee
So Starbucks is a Muslim invention.

You think we need more inaccurate reasons to hate the religion?
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  #487  
Old 17.08.2016, 09:55
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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So Starbucks is a Muslim invention.

You think we need more inaccurate reasons to hate the religion?

If it wasn't for Starbucks, there's a much greater chance the places you enjoy will be full of hipsters and struggling writers :-p


At least this way we know where they are.
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  #488  
Old 17.08.2016, 09:55
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Christ almighty, did you even read it?


The leaders of ISIS aren't religious scholars - they're secular ex-Baathists from Saddams army.
Many, not all. It also doesn't mean they have not since then developed further religious ideals since joining.

Either way, anyone who says ISIS has nothing whatsoever to do with religion is just urinating into the PC wind.
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  #489  
Old 17.08.2016, 09:57
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

An article all about six Muslims, from different countries in the middle east.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...red-lands.html

Its a 40,000 word, deeply researched article that demonstrates why stereotyping the middle east, even arabs as a whole is lazy and foolish.
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  #490  
Old 17.08.2016, 10:05
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Many, not all. It also doesn't mean they have not since then developed further religious ideals since joining.

Either way, anyone who says ISIS has nothing whatsoever to do with religion is just urinating into the PC wind.

So the fact they joined before they discovered religion means that religion was a major factor for them to join ISIS in the first place? what sorcery is that? Have ISIS discovered time travel?


For gods sake man, read the article. Nobody is saying there aren't religious men and women in ISIS - the point is that most don't understand their own religion well enough to know what to do, and ISIS takes advantage of that.
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  #491  
Old 17.08.2016, 10:14
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Christ almighty, did you even read it?


The leaders of ISIS aren't religious scholars - they're secular ex-Baathists from Saddams army.
Did you even bother to look into the truth of that statement? That quote is attributed to Tariq Ramadan. Take what he has to say with a grain of salt.

Very few of the current and former leaders of ISIS have any links to the Baath party under Saddam.
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  #492  
Old 17.08.2016, 10:19
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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So the fact they joined before they discovered religion means that religion was a major factor for them to join ISIS in the first place? what sorcery is that? Have ISIS discovered time travel?

For gods sake man, read the article. Nobody is saying there aren't religious men and women in ISIS - the point is that most don't understand their own religion well enough to know what to do, and ISIS takes advantage of that.
I'm not going to read every article you link to, because I don't see you as a fully rational poster. You have a frantic, spittle-flecked element that I just can't take seriously enough to put the effort into trying to fully investigate and understand your perspective. As for the rest of your post, where did I say that everyone who joined ISIS did so only for deeply religious reasons? Again, I don't give two hoots that every recruit doesn't know their religion perfectly, I just care what atrocities they do in the end in the name of ISIS and their perception of Islam.
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  #493  
Old 17.08.2016, 10:22
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I'm not going to read every article you link to, because I don't see you as a fully rational poster. You have a frantic, spittle-flecked element that I just can't take seriously enough to put the effort into trying to fully investigate and understand your perspective. As for the rest of your post, where did I say that everyone who joined ISIS did so only for deeply religious reasons? Again, I don't give two hoots that every recruit doesn't know their religion perfectly, I just care what atrocities they do in the end in the name of ISIS and their perception of Islam.

Ahh I see - so the perception of Islam held by 0.0016% of muslims should be given more weight than the perception held by the remaining 99.9984%.

That's a sound strategy. Got it.


The reason you wont read it is because it disagrees with your own prejudices - lets be honest.
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  #494  
Old 17.08.2016, 10:27
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Did you even bother to look into the truth of that statement? That quote is attributed to Tariq Ramadan. Take what he has to say with a grain of salt.

Very few of the current and former leaders of ISIS have any links to the Baath party under Saddam.


Yeah, your link takes me to Walmart. As in, the giant American superstore. Not quite sure what walmart has to do with things here?


Because the quote came from a Muslim, its not to be trusted? Ok then.
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  #495  
Old 17.08.2016, 10:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Sorry to disagree again with you.
-Palestinian baby burned by nationalist Ultra Orthodox
- Teenager killed at Gay Pride and others stabbed by Ultra orthodox
- Modesty patrols violence against women and shops open on Shabatt.
- Hasidic violence in NY against black gay man
- Police refuses to enter Mea'Sharim because of violent ultra orthodox residents
cherry picking headlines is easy, but the numbers tell a different story.Ultra orthodox jews rarely commit violent crime (Murder is very rare in Ultra orthdox communities).

Religious Muslims, unfortunately, commit violent crimes and their victims number in the millions - Alegria alone suffered at least 100,000. you can continue in alphbetic order.

The difference is that Islam is a political religion, seeking influence in the world.

The Burka/Burkini/Hijab/Niqab is seen (possibly wrongly), as the "uniform" of Islamism, hence the legislation.
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  #496  
Old 17.08.2016, 10:31
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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cherry picking headlines is easy, but the numbers tell a different story.Ultra orthodox jews rarely commit violent crime (Murder is very rare in Ultra orthdox communities).

Religious Muslims, unfortunately, commit violent crimes and their victims number in the millions - Alegria alone suffered at least 100,000. you can continue in alphbetic order.

The difference is that Islam is a political religion, seeking influence in the world.

The Burka/Burkini/Hijab/Niqab is seen (possibly wrongly), as the "uniform" of Islamism, hence the legislation.

Lol. Israel calls itself the Jewish state. That not political at all, is it?
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  #497  
Old 17.08.2016, 10:33
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Ahh I see - so the perception of Islam held by 0.0016% of muslims should be given more weight than the perception held by the remaining 99.9984%.

That's a sound strategy. Got it.

The reason you wont read it is because it disagrees with your own prejudices - lets be honest.
If I am being honest I just genuinely don't understand your logic and rationale, mostly due to the erratic way with which you write. *shrugs*
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  #498  
Old 17.08.2016, 10:34
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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How many people have been killed by burkas?
How many have been killed by burning crosses?

I would wager that many more have been killed by non-burning crosses. But you don't see widespread calls to get those banned.
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  #499  
Old 17.08.2016, 10:34
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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If I am being honest I just genuinely don't understand your logic and rationale, mostly due to the erratic way with which you write. *shrugs*


Funny that this only becomes the case now, and not much earlier in our sparring.


To each his own.
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  #500  
Old 17.08.2016, 10:43
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

@ Richdog, I don't think anyone would deny (not even the PC brigade) that "IS/Daesh" are not extremist religious fundamentalist Islamic nutters.

Some people seem to miss the point, and that is that IS does not represent the majority of moderate mainstream Islamic or Muslim society. It represents a small and very dangerous fundamentalist ideology. The fact that it has a willing and dedicated leadership and it manages to indoctrinate weak minded, uneducated and disenfranchised Muslim men and women and children into their ideology doesn't change the fact that they are not representative of all Muslims.

I don't particularly like any religion, I am a hardcore atheist. However I wholeheartedly agree that people should be allowed to practice their religious beliefs whatever they may be, but they should do it peacefully and without judgement on others and should of course follow secular law, especially in societies that are not based on religion.

Last edited by TobiasM; 17.08.2016 at 11:17.
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