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Old 29.08.2016, 10:26
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

And again in Brussels this morning...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37211788

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Shortly before 02:30 local time (00:30 GMT), a car rammed through three fences, leading to an explosion and a large fire, RTL Belgium reported.
Belgian media said "one or more" suspects then reportedly set off a bomb near the laboratories.
But police could not confirm that a bomb had exploded.
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Old 31.08.2016, 13:51
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Yesterday in Toulouse French policewoman was stabbed in the throat by a man because the officer represented France.

The attacker had ''mental health issues''

http://www.thelocal.fr/20160830/poli...rance-toulouse

Last edited by kriss kross; 31.08.2016 at 13:59. Reason: Gender Equality - Cheers Parnell
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Old 31.08.2016, 13:55
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Yesterday in Toulouse French policeman was stabbed in the throat by a man because the officer represented France.

The attacker had ''mental health issues''
You know, some psychiatrists are taking issue with calling these cases "mental health issues". They say it stigmatizes their patients who do not have any violent tendencies at all.
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  #544  
Old 31.08.2016, 13:56
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

policewoman ... vive la difference ...
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  #545  
Old 31.08.2016, 14:11
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You know, some psychiatrists are taking issue with calling these cases "mental health issues". They say it stigmatizes their patients who do not have any violent tendencies at all.
That make no sense at all. An attacker would not be characterized as having "mental health issues" until after committing their crime, consequently being examined by a psychiatrist who would then apply the label. Any "stigmatization" would be after proof of violent tendencies, in which it case it isn't stigmatization at all -- just a correct diagnosis.

Or are you suggesting that psychiatrists are incorrectly diagnosing mental illness in hordes of patients who consequently became enraged at the "stigma" attached to them and resort to violent acts that would otherwise never have occurred? (Hint, the answer is no.)

(Nice selection of ads immediately following my post at the moment -- especially the first one
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Old 31.08.2016, 14:21
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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That make no sense at all. An attacker would not be characterized as having "mental health issues" until after committing their crime, consequently being examined by a psychiatrist who would then apply the label. Any "stigmatization" would be after proof of violent tendencies, in which it case it isn't stigmatization at all -- just a correct diagnosis.

Or are you suggesting that psychiatrists are incorrectly diagnosing mental illness in hordes of patients who consequently became enraged at the "stigma" attached to them and resort to violent acts that would otherwise never have occurred? (Hint, the answer is no.)

(Nice selection of ads immediately following my post at the moment -- especially the first one
Lately, a lot of criminal acts and terrorism have been labelled as "mental health issues" by law enforcement before they can truly assess the situation. I suppose it is more calming for the general public than declaring yet another terrorist attack. John Kerry even goes so far as saying that we can get rid of terrorism if the media would simply stop reporting it. Sort of like a magic trick.

So psychiatrists warn that mental health patients should not be unfairly lumped together with criminals and terrorists. Here's one such statement from the Austrian Society of Psychiatry (in German):
http://www.krone.at/oesterreich/ursa...r-story-523082
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Old 09.09.2016, 23:32
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

A very good article in today's Guardian

European Muslims are not new. Nor are they all the same
Natalie Nougayrède

In all the panic about terror and immigration, we have lost sight of our continent’s complex history

With so many passions aroused in Europe by the impact of the refugee crisis, rising populism, fear of terrorism, not to mention confused debates over secularism and burkinis, exploring what European Muslims think has arguably never been more important. One interesting figure is the grand mufti of Slovenia who I met at a recent conference in Austria, held by the International Peace Institute. Slovenia is a predominantly Catholic country of two million people – among them, an estimated 50,000 Muslims. The country’s first mosque is currently under construction in the capital, Ljubljana. Building it required the overcoming of many political and administrative hurdles – these were eventually cleared when Slovenia’s constitutional court ruled that denying a minority the right to a place of worship ran counter to religious freedoms. Unsurprisingly, Grand Mufti Nezad Grabus thinks these are difficult times for Muslims in Europe. They constantly have to fend off suspicions of links with radical Islamism or terrorism.

Grabus is a quiet, smiling man in his late 40s. If there is one thing he wants to stress, it is that “Islam is part of European civilisation”. Islam is by no means a new religion in Europe, “but it has new manifestations”, he says. He was shocked by this summer’s burkini ban in some French seaside resorts, and he’s bluntly opposed to any legislation outlawing the niqab. But he also says the niqab is something European Muslims must work to counter, because it prevents Muslim women from finding a rightful place in society. Grabus was born in the Bosnian town of Travnik (his father later moved the family to Slovenia where he’d found work, when it was part of communist Yugoslavia). He is a Balkan Muslim. Islam certainly isn’t new in the Balkans, a region that was dominated for centuries by the Ottoman empire.

Just as Europe is a patchwork of cultures and nations, Europe’s Muslim populations are extremely diverse, as is their history. This may sound obvious, but it’s something that gets easily pushed aside in all the heated debates about Islam, migration and identity politics. Muslims tend to get lumped together as a single entity. “In Europe, we Muslims have to acknowledge that we have no common narrative,” says the mufti, “there are many differences.” For example, he points to how ethnic characteristics play a more important role than many observers realise. Muslims can relate as much to their ethnic or national roots (Bosnian, Albanian, Turkish, Kurdish, Algerian, Pakistani etc) as they do to their religious beliefs. Religious revival, as in any faith, doesn’t mean you sweep away other parts of your identity.

How many people know that the first mosque in France was built by the French secular republic (in Paris, in the 1920s)?
But that’s not to say there can’t be a “common narrative”, and Grabus is adamant that: “As Muslims in Europe, our duty is to create one, in which we would expose our understanding of Islam belonging here.” Much of this, he points out, has to do with education and overcoming ignorance, both among Muslims and non-Muslims. How many people, he asks, know that Austro-Hungary, under the Habsburgs, recognised Islam as an official religion as long ago as 1912? How many know that the first mosque in France was built by the secular French republic (in Paris, in the 1920s) as a tribute to the tens of thousands of Muslims who died in the first world war? And how many people are ready to consider that the medieval scholar Averroes, born in Córdoba when Andalucía was ruled by the Arabs, was a European Muslim?

With all the current obsessing over terrorism and radicalisation, it’s easy to forget about Europe’s variety, and the diversity of its Muslim populations. Days after talking with Grabus, I was in Cologne, meeting representatives of the Turkish-Islamic Union for religious affairs (as part of a study group on Germany and the refugee crisis, organised by the Robert Bosch Foundation). The central mosque in Cologne is a beautiful, modern building with concrete and glass walls, and an Ottoman-styled dome. It is still under construction, and it stands as proof of some of the societal changes now under way.

A million Muslims live in the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia – a third of Germany’s three-million-strong Turkish community. The Turkish-Islamic Union has strong institutional ties with the Turkish state – something that has led some German politicians to express doubts about where its loyalties lie. It took decades for Germany to face up to the fact that its Turkish Gastarbeiter immigrants, who arrived mostly in the 1950s and 1960s, should be entitled to citizenship and treated as an integral part of society – a population that had settled definitively, not temporarily. But Murat Kayman, a member of the Turkish-Islamic union, says “the attitude towards Muslims has never been as bad” as it is today. Anti-Muslim and racist incidents are on the rise. The fact Germany is now grappling with the integration of more than one million refugees who arrived in 2015 – many of them from the Arab world – has created additional stress. Last year’s outbreak of “welcome culture” has faded and the far right has made electoral gains – to which Angela Merkel reacted ambiguously by saying in a speech: “Germany will remain Germany.”

What struck me while talking to the Slovenian grand mufti and to leaders of Cologne’s Turkish Muslims is what little contact and exchanges they seem to have with each other, or with Muslim communities in France, Britain or Scandinavia. Just as European countries each grapple separately with issues to do with multiculturalism, integration, and contrasted models of relations between religion and the state, European Muslim populations are fragmented. These complexities get drowned out in Europe’s often hysterical debates over Islam.

The historian Tony Judt once wrote about the need to “map the overlapping contours and faultlines of European identity and experience”, because “in an age of demographic transition and resettlement, today’s Europeans are more numerous and heterogeneous than ever before”. How European societies embrace growing diversity will in many ways determine the fate of our democracies. Paying more attention to the differences among Europe’s Muslims, rather than seeing them as a homogeneous bloc, could be a way forward.

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  #548  
Old 10.09.2016, 20:01
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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European Muslims are not new. Nor are they all the same
Thanks for bringing this up. As the title says European Muslims have existed here relatively quietly for a long time. Most of the ones I know (mainly from ex-Yugoslavian countries) don't wear burks, hijabs or burkinis and are not very fundamentalist in their religion.

The new waves of Muslim migrants are not European, and are bringing the Middle Eastern "brand/culture" of Islam with them, which is quite different and more hard-core and radical than what is normally seen in "native European" Muslims. As noted in the article, there were hardly ever discussions about burkas, etc. until recently, there were hardly any Islamic terrorist attacks here, until recently, everything was fine, until recently...
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Old 10.09.2016, 22:03
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Thanks for bringing this up. As the title says European Muslims have existed here relatively quietly for a long time. Most of the ones I know (mainly from ex-Yugoslavian countries) don't wear burks, hijabs or burkinis and are not very fundamentalist in their religion.

The new waves of Muslim migrants are not European, and are bringing the Middle Eastern "brand/culture" of Islam with them, which is quite different and more hard-core and radical than what is normally seen in "native European" Muslims. As noted in the article, there were hardly ever discussions about burkas, etc. until recently, there were hardly any Islamic terrorist attacks here, until recently, everything was fine, until recently...
Strange place the Middle East.
Anybody familiar with the story of the Egyptian Pharoah Akhenaten who was married to Queen Nefertiti, one of the most famous of all ancient Egyptian women. Tutankhamun was the son of Akhenaten.

Akhenaten tried to change the religion of Egypt from multiple Gods to one God; some people claim he had converted to Judaism.

"Until recently, there were hardly any Islamic terrorist attacks here" No real evidence to link terrorist attacks to refugees, 9/11 in USA was not linked to refugees.
It was really only a matter of time before Europe would suffer more Islamic terrorist attacks.
Let us not forget;
1985 El Descanso bombing, Spain
1985 TWA Flight 847 hijacking, Greece
1994 London Israeli Embassy attack
1995 Paris Métro and RER bombings
2004 murder of Theo van Gogh by Amsterdam-born jihadist Mohammed Bouyeri
2005 Multiple bombings in London.
2007 Glasgow International Airport attack
2010 Stockholm bombing
2011 Frankfurt Airport shooting

Hard to find a refugee link in any of these
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Old 12.09.2016, 14:27
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

What matters when considering "Muslims" is the question of whether we are talking about someone who is broadly defined as Muslim, such as my best friend, or someone who is an actual Sharia adherent.

Sharia is what justifies the use of violence against nonbelievers, as well as the coercion of Muslim women into a drastically inferior social and legal status. (How non-Muslim women can be treated under Sharia is unspeakable even on the internet.)

Just being a Muslim does not mean that someone is going to go out shooting/bombing/ramming/stabbing/enslaving/raping/beating/forcing the hijab, hiqab, burka, etc. It's the belief in Sharia that serves as the basis for such acts,as well as the basis for the culture of support of such acts.
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Old 12.09.2016, 15:08
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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What matters when considering "Muslims" is the question of whether we are talking about someone who is broadly defined as Muslim, such as my best friend, or someone who is an actual Sharia adherent.

Sharia is what justifies the use of violence against nonbelievers, as well as the coercion of Muslim women into a drastically inferior social and legal status. (How non-Muslim women can be treated under Sharia is unspeakable even on the internet.)

Just being a Muslim does not mean that someone is going to go out shooting/bombing/ramming/stabbing/enslaving/raping/beating/forcing the hijab, hiqab, burka, etc. It's the belief in Sharia that serves as the basis for such acts,as well as the basis for the culture of support of such acts.
basically - the more religious the person is, the more likely to be mysogenic, racist, violent.
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Old 12.09.2016, 15:58
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

I'm not sure what the value there is in identifying Muslims by their ethnic or cultural backgrounds. I think people would more likely react to the problem of terrorism in a racist manner by doing so. Those who have committed terrorism have span across all gamuts of Muslim ethnicity. Not sure one can claim one type is peaceful and another isn't, or for any such purpose of classification. You'd get into issues of racist bigotry at that point. Well, but what else can one expect from an article in the Guardian?

Ultimately, terrorism is of personal dispositions.

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basically - the more religious the person is, the more likely to be mysogenic, racist, violent.
Religiosity or psychological problems, if there is a large difference between the two, I don't know. Not sure how important it is to differentiate between the two, as it matters little to a dead victim. The problem is there appears to be quite a lot of such individuals. France has about 15,000 they are currently watching, and Germany said they have over 500.

And then there are a larger number of Muslims who would never hurt a fly, yet "understand", support, or tacitly agree with the motives of terrorists.

I think it would be more useful for Muslims to identify themselves across a scale of political and/or religious violence. I don't think this is something non-Muslims can or should do for them. Muslims need to do it for themselves, as they are by far the biggest victims of the ideology.

In the meantime, it is perfectly rational to increase security measures for a known unquantifiable threat. It would just be easier to apply proper measures if the threat was quantifiable. Except nobody really knows how to quantify it.

Last edited by Phos; 12.09.2016 at 20:39.
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Old 12.09.2016, 20:36
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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basically - the more religious the person is, the more likely to be mysogenic, racist, violent.
Yet, the monks of Tibhirine or the Buddhists of Tibet, who one could argue were/are the most faithful to their religions, weren't/aren't the ones targeting and killing people of other faiths.

Be honest with yourself.
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Old 12.09.2016, 20:42
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Yet, the monks of Tibhirine or the Buddhists of Tibet, who one could argue were/are the most faithful to their religions, weren't/aren't the ones targeting and killing people of other faiths.

Be honest with yourself.
It seems no religion is immune from fanaticism and violence.

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Old 12.09.2016, 21:12
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Yet, the monks of Tibhirine or the Buddhists of Tibet, who one could argue were/are the most faithful to their religions, weren't/aren't the ones targeting and killing people of other faiths.

Be honest with yourself.
fair enough - I'll change it "the more religious the person is, the more likely to be mysogenic and/or racist and/or violent".

Some religions tick more boxes than others.
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Old 12.09.2016, 21:24
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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fair enough - I'll change it "the more religious the person is, the more likely to be mysogenic and/or racist and/or violent".

Some religions tick more boxes than others.
I'll take it a step further.

The more extreme a person's religious beliefs are, the more suseptible they are to engaging with a death cult.

Al Qaeda are a power organisation.

Daesh are a death cult. They don't represent any orthodox version of Islam that I've ever encountered. They're the Jim Jones of Islam.

If there was a large Christian sect that lived only by the Book of Leviticus, we'd all be buggered!
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Old 12.09.2016, 22:00
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I'll take it a step further.

The more extreme a person's religious beliefs are, the more suseptible they are to engaging with a death cult.

Al Qaeda are a power organisation.

Daesh are a death cult. They don't represent any orthodox version of Islam that I've ever encountered. They're the Jim Jones of Islam.

If there was a large Christian sect that lived only by the Book of Leviticus, we'd all be buggered!
Book of Leviticus? You seem to be getting confused with Genesis (Sodom and Gomorrah)?
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Old 12.09.2016, 22:48
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I'll take it a step further.

The more extreme a person's religious beliefs are, the more suseptible they are to engaging with a death cult.

Al Qaeda are a power organisation.

Daesh are a death cult. They don't represent any orthodox version of Islam that I've ever encountered.
May I recommend a trip Saudi Arabia, ask how it got to be called Saudi Arabia.
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Old 12.09.2016, 23:04
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I'll take it a step further.

The more extreme a person's religious beliefs are, the more suseptible they are to engaging with a death cult.

Al Qaeda are a power organisation.

Daesh are a death cult. They don't represent any orthodox version of Islam that I've ever encountered. They're the Jim Jones of Islam.

If there was a large Christian sect that lived only by the Book of Leviticus, we'd all be buggered!
Kinda hard to claim it's extreme if a huge proportion of it's followers go along with death for apostasy :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aposta...lam#Background

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Old 13.09.2016, 08:16
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Thanks for bringing this up. As the title says European Muslims have existed here relatively quietly for a long time. Most of the ones I know (mainly from ex-Yugoslavian countries) don't wear burks, hijabs or burkinis and are not very fundamentalist in their religion.
..
In some parts of the Balkans most traditional Muslims are actually of Turkish or Tatar ethnical origins, legacy of the Ottoman Empire.
I don't know what's the situ in ex-Yugoslavia, but back home they identify more with an ethnicity/culture than with a religion. They're proud Turks, not proud Muslims. I don't remember the tiniest conflict in those areas that are indeed very multicultural.
There are a lot of differences between the gentle Islam they practice and the religious ethos from other regions, you can't even compare. They were practically "assimilated" into the main culture and are one of the most loyal minorities. (along with the German minority)

Edit: I miss the coffee from "the Turks". :-)


Last edited by greenmount; 13.09.2016 at 09:54.
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