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Old 14.09.2016, 11:38
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Nonsense. People responsible from the most violent period in history, WW2, were non religious. 50 million people were methodically killed by non-religious, educated, smart people.
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I beg to differ.

He's got a point. Socialism's body count rivals that of religions. I don't know the exact numbers, but I have read statements it is larger than religions, maybe due to population increase.
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Old 14.09.2016, 11:41
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Socialism's body count rivals that of religions.
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I don't know the exact numbers
Its amazing how quickly and elegantly you proved yourself wrong
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Old 14.09.2016, 11:46
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Its amazing how quickly and elegantly you proved yourself wrong
How so? He has an estimate of 50 Million people. I've heard of similar figures. Religions' body count is probably in the same range, so yes, their death counts rival each other. And I'm not so sure Socialism is over yet.


A quick google finds,
Socialism’s Death Toll: 100 Million Victims

I can't speak for its credibility. I haven't actually read it yet.
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Old 14.09.2016, 11:55
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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The vast majority of believers from all sorts of religions does. I don't believe you've ever been assaulted by a Russian Christian orthodox babushka, for instance.
As I said, live and let live. It pays off in the end you know...;-)
Ever heard of Rasputin?
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Old 14.09.2016, 11:56
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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He's got a point. Socialism's body count rivals that of religions. I don't know the exact numbers, but I have read statements it is larger than religions, maybe due to population increase.
We are all the same hardware, all that differs is the software. So whether you are running Religion 1.0, Socialism 1.1, West Ham Utd 2.0 etc... your propensity for violence is going to be similar.
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Old 14.09.2016, 11:58
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I can't speak for its credibility. I haven't actually read it yet.
Aaaaand you disprove yourself brilliantly again!
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Old 14.09.2016, 12:01
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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We are all the same hardware, all that differs is the software. So whether you are running Religion 1.0, Socialism 1.1, West Ham Utd 2.0 etc... your propensity for violence is going to be similar.
I agree with that. Whether religion or an atheistic "ism", its a program and platform for subjugating the will of one group of people to another's.

This idea of "uniting" is somewhat naive and creepy. Such proclamations of "peace" have normally been preludes to horrible deaths. Truly, what we haven't learned is how to live with each other and let live. I think it would be even worse without religion.


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Aaaaand you disprove yourself brilliantly again!
You're missing or denying some facts of history.
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Old 14.09.2016, 12:10
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I agree with that. Whether religion or an atheistic "ism", its a program and platform for subjugating the will of one group of people to another's.

This idea of "uniting" is somewhat naive and creepy. Such proclamations of "peace" have normally been preludes to horrible deaths. Truly, what we haven't learned is how to live with each other and let live. I think it would be even worse without religion.




You're missing or denying some facts of history.
Agree. Attributing the ills of the world to some particular group is to my mind a convenient simplification. It generally boils down to "If we could just get rid of all the "X" things would be fine". Substitute pretty much any aspect of human desire, genetic trait, preference or culture and you're almost guarantee'd to be on the wrong path.

And before anyone objects to the above generalisation by saying "What if we could eliminate stupidity?" think of the disastrous effects this would have in economics, politics, and the advertising and entertainment industries, not to mention the popularity of internet forums.
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Old 14.09.2016, 12:27
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Agree. Attributing the ills of the world to some particular group is to my mind a convenient simplification. It generally boils down to "If we could just get rid of all the "X" things would be fine". Substitute pretty much any aspect of human desire, genetic trait, preference or culture and you're almost guarantee'd to be on the wrong path.
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Yes, thats EXACTLY what i mean. All religions should be subject to the rule of law in the state, separated from that state and be subjugated to the level of hobby. You can practice any hobby you want, in private and as long as its not disrupting social life.
I find such simple generalisations, while seemingly practical, quite naive and wishful in thinking. What we call rules of laws are whatever a particular population has agreed upon. For example, France can ban the Burkini with some constitutional changes. For someone who believes they've received their laws from the eternal and divine, these secular laws are somewhat difficult to take seriously in comparison. Yes, sure, they can follow them for convenience, but it doesn't mean they are respected. If there is a good value proposition to follow them, sure it makes sense to go along with it. The minute that value proposition is no longer providing any reward, we'll drop it and ignore it.

From this perspective, secular laws are somewhat meaningless to those who believe they have divine and eternal laws. Its like rules to a game at a children's party in comparison. It would seem kind of silly to take too seriously.
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Old 14.09.2016, 12:39
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I find such simple generalisations, while seemingly practical, quite naive and wishful in thinking. What we call rules of laws are whatever a particular population has agreed upon. For example, France can ban the Burkini with some constitutional changes. For someone who believes they've received their laws from the eternal and divine, these secular laws are somewhat difficult to take seriously in comparison. Yes, sure, they can follow them for convenience, but it doesn't mean they are respected. If there is a good value proposition to follow them, sure it makes sense to go along with it. The minute that value proposition is no longer providing any reward, we'll drop it and ignore it.

From this perspective, secular laws are somewhat meaningless to those who believe they have divine and eternal laws. Its like rules to a game at a children's party in comparison. It would seem kind of silly to take too seriously.
Isn't that the case with all secular laws in all situations? Religious people believe their laws come from God, and that God wants them to respect those laws even if nobody is looking and if there is no earthly reward, and depending on how religious they are, even if those laws go against common sense.

If you take God out of the equation, laws only become a means to an end, or a compromise. When you feel nobody is looking, or that the end is no longer what you are striving for, or the other side of the compromise is in a weaker position than you, there is no compelling reason to uphold that law and you either seek to change it or just ignore it. Secular law thus seeks out the situation of lowest entropy, which is not necessarily the same as being just or right. It's not only religious people who do this in secular societies. Secular people do it too.
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Old 14.09.2016, 12:46
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Isn't that the case with all secular laws in all situations? Religious people believe their laws come from God, and that God wants them to respect those laws even if nobody is looking and if there is no earthly reward, and depending on how religious they are, even if those laws go against common sense.

If you take God out of the equation, laws only become a means to an end, or a compromise. When you feel nobody is looking, or that the end is no longer what you are striving for, or the other side of the compromise is in a weaker position than you, there is no compelling reason to uphold that law and you either seek to change it or just ignore it. Secular law thus seeks out the situation of lowest entropy, which is not necessarily the same as being just or right. It's not only religious people who do this in secular societies. Secular people do it too.
Yes, it is culturalization. In terms of relating to other human beings, I think it is essential, and should be the primary rule in terms of relating to other human beings. Religion, or most of it, should only be for inner disciplines to apply to oneself, and perhaps to a like minded community. Where we have problems is when there is an attempt to apply religion to those who don't believe in or want it. That is oppression. In this day and age, I would be happy for that outward application of religion to be outlawed.
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Old 14.09.2016, 14:08
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Going off point slightly, I've just been crying laughing at Hussain Manawer on The Wright Stuff.

For those who may not have heard of him, Hussein won the Rising Star Programme competition last year, and his prize is a trip into space in 2018.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...n_8627014.html


Hussein said that he flies an awful lot for his work, and every time he flies, he's the subject of 'random' security checks. At Heathrow, he's even been given 'Prevent' leaflets about preventing radicalisation. As Hussein gives Prevent lectures in schools as part of his work, he doesn't mind this because it shows that the security agencies are doing something, buy the irony...

What had me in stitches however, was the story of when he flew into Minneapolis, and during the 'random' security check, was asked what he does for a living. His answer... "I'm a trainee astronaut" ...wasn't well met
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Old 14.09.2016, 14:22
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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All religions should be subject to the rule of law in the state, separated from that state and be subjugated to the level of hobby. You can practice any hobby you want, in private and as long as its not disrupting social life.
is according to you:

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I find such simple generalisations, while seemingly practical, quite naive and wishful in thinking.
But then you come around and say exactly the same

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Religion, or most of it, should only be for inner disciplines to apply to oneself, and perhaps to a like minded community. Where we have problems is when there is an attempt to apply religion to those who don't believe in or want it. That is oppression. In this day and age, I would be happy for that outward application of religion to be outlawed.
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Old 14.09.2016, 14:35
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Does being held captive at Easter or a wedding, and forced to eat an endless supply of food constitute assault?


So, so authentic !!! I apologise, sir.
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Old 14.09.2016, 14:41
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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So, so authentic !!! I apologise, sir.
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Old 14.09.2016, 14:48
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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"More dumpling?"
"No thanks, I'm stuffed"
Plonk!
"Have some chicken with that!"
Plonk!
"Ummm, thank you."
Reminds me of this sketch

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Old 14.09.2016, 14:49
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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"More dumpling?"
"No thanks, I'm stuffed"
Plonk!
"Have some chicken with that!"
Plonk!
"Ummm, thank you."
Well, all my relatives behave like that.
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Old 14.09.2016, 15:06
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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But then you come around and say exactly the same
We need better stratification and reintegration of what religion means at which level. For example,
1-Personal
2-Community
3-Society
4-National
5-International

Religion should only be confined to #1 and #2. Any impedance of religion at that level would be a violation of human rights, and does not work. The commies tried it and failed.

In a multi-religious society, religion should not be allowed in #3. This is where we have the problems today. Yet it is compounded by seditious and divisive political factions that obfuscates and ambiguates the influence of #1 & #2 on #3. If we don't get this straight, we'll have problems at a societal level.

On number #4 and #5, this is where you normally find the mass murder of people. It isn't only the influence of religion at this level. Atheistic ideologies have caused more deaths at this level. I agree that religion should be banned at this level. It would help prevent religious radicals from even trying. But it won't stop non-religious genocide.
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Old 14.09.2016, 15:14
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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We have these Christian martyrs - a prince who chose to see his sons killed before his eyes than convert to Islam. Such were the days...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantin_Brâncoveanu
Anyway, the whole history of the Balkans/Eastern Europe is troubled and I believe we can't glorify any empire. All of them are guilty of some things. What people from there want today is exactly what everyone else wants - peace, education, health care, safety. A good economy, democracy, freedom of press, human rights, no-one is stuck in the past. Ex-Yugoslavia is a long way from those wars, it was a bitter lesson for all of us.
Agree for most - but those increasing numbers who are Sharia adherents want something more than materialism.
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Old 14.09.2016, 15:42
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Actually often in the Balkan region, but also in other regions, culture gets confused with ethnicity. The Turks converted some folks to Islam whereas other resisted. The Ottomans on the whole were smart rulers and understood the concepts of carrots and sticks and also of recognizing talent when they saw it and giving people opportunities. And they weren't racist. they didn't discriminate according to ethnicity. So the son of a goat herder from an outlying region could work his way up to high office and then later in life return home, bringing with him Turkish culture and values and Islam. Ethnically there isn't much difference between a Bosnian Mulsim and an Orthodox Serb. Culturally the divide is bigger.

Also elsewhere in easter Europe, people would identify themselves by their language rather than their ancestry. And typically switching to the language of the ruling group opened doors to social mobility. This is how German spread into Eastern Europe for example, but also Hungarian in the days of the Doppelmonrachie. This is how Russian spread into outlying regions of the Tsarist empire. And this is how Islam and Turkish spread acroiss the Ottoman empire. It's also why people in the USA dropped their ancestral languages and adopted English.

Of course the reverse side of the coin is that this linguistically enabled social mobility means you get a ruling and middle class speaking an adopted language whereas the peasants and poor speak their ancestral language. Language thus becomes a class identifier and also a rallying point for nationalism and insurrection. The Ottomans felt this when one by one the Balkan nations rebelled against them and it also fuelled the irreversibility of the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian empire.
Generally agree but note that Sharia has specific carrot-and-stick methods for converting people to Islam that are much more specific and methodological than a minority simply adopting the culture of the majority. For instance, in Sharia, a non-Muslim cannot be in charge of a Muslim so a non-Muslim can never be a manager in the larger economy, a non-Mulsim must pay the jizya, sometimes, you have physical punishment of non-Muslims who are people of the book (pagans are simply killed), such as the requirement that non-Muslims wear heavy wooden yokes around the neck. Then you have the rules of marriage and inheritance, where a Muslim man can marry a woman of any religion; a Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man; a Muslim man may divorce a woman by saying "I divorce you" three times but a woman cannot do the same; all children of a divorced couple go with the father; and all children of a Muslim man are automatically Muslim regardless of the religion of the mother.

Putting aside the frequent use of plain old physical force, you can see the effectiveness of Sharia in growing the population of Muslims versus the native religion with the passing of generations. Egypt is a classic example of this dynamic at work through the last 13 centuries.
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