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  #841  
Old 02.03.2017, 13:10
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

I recently moved here from the U.S. and I too am terrified of what has happened back at home. I'm learning that a handful of people I know have become brainwashed because of their own fear of losing their "stuff" or their land and also because of hatred.

The good news? Many people who are normally quiet are speaking up against all types of racism, chauvinism and hate talk. Average people are becoming more active in seeking peace, in reading the news, in learning about government and in ensuring civil liberties stay in place for all people. The press is also having to wake up and get real, get honest.

So I am hopeful that there is good that will come from this horrible drama as long as we don't continue to slide down the slope of lies, polarization and hatred.
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  #842  
Old 02.03.2017, 13:14
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You still haven't answered the fact that it was given to the press, rather than the police?

If the real motivation was safety, why did the recording not get passed to the police?

What motivation might one have to give it to the press, bypassing the police completely?
Mosque has problems with extremism, including having an ISIS terror cell operating out of it and having an Imam forced to step down for having extremist views.

New Imam comes and calls for the murder of any Muslims who do not participate in prayers.

Two people secretly film this sermon and inform a journalist which leads to the mosque being raided and the extremist Imam charged and removed.

Yet you think it's wrong that the two whistle-blowers went to the press when you felt they should of gone directly to the police.
You seem more upset with this than the fact that there was an extremist Imam calling for his followers to murder. Strange.
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  #843  
Old 02.03.2017, 15:18
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Mosque has problems with extremism, including having an ISIS terror cell operating out of it and having an Imam forced to step down for having extremist views.

New Imam comes and calls for the murder of any Muslims who do not participate in prayers.

Two people secretly film this sermon and inform a journalist which leads to the mosque being raided and the extremist Imam charged and removed.

Yet you think it's wrong that the two whistle-blowers went to the press when you felt they should of gone directly to the police.
You seem more upset with this than the fact that there was an extremist Imam calling for his followers to murder. Strange.
Absolutely they should have gone to the police. Are you mad?

If i had evidence of illegal activity i would not go to the papers, id go to the police. Newspapers sell stories, Police enforce laws.

Now, stop deflecting and answer the question:

Why would you go to a journalist and not the police, if public safety was your priority.?
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  #844  
Old 02.03.2017, 15:20
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Absolutely they should have gone to the police. Are you mad?

If i had evidence of illegal activity i would not go to the papers, id go to the police. Newspapers sell stories, Police enforce laws.

Now, stop deflecting and answer the question:

Why would you go to a journalist and not the police, if public safety was your priority.?
Maybe because you think the police won't take the allegations seriously.

Sometimes you need a shitstorm in the press to make the police tackle a topic that for any reason they are not taking seriously enough.

Remember Rotherham?
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  #845  
Old 02.03.2017, 15:24
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Lol. Say I'm wrong and then post something that proves exactly what I said.



I'm no expert, however I do have eyes. Here are some people that take the Quran literally.





So, you have 3 individual photos from the Daily Mail, a lebanese TV network, and an Australian News network.

In other words, your evidence is some pictures you got from google after using a (i'm sure impartial) search term.

This does not evidence make.

Now, in a population of 1,600,000,000, there will undoubtedly be a small percentage (which makes a significant number nonetheless) who either through their own interpretation or somebody else's do follow it literally. I dont argue this.

However, that it is a substantial enough percentage for you to be able to consider them representative of the global Muslim population is yet to be supported by evidence.

I wait with baited breath.
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  #846  
Old 02.03.2017, 15:26
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Maybe because you think the police won't take the allegations seriously.

Sometimes you need a shitstorm in the press to make the police tackle a topic that for any reason they are not taking seriously enough.

Remember Rotherham?
Of course.

Inciting hate in Winterthur = child pedophile ring in Rotherham.

Obviously the same thing.

The police in Rotherham knew but didn't act. Did the police know in the Winterthur case? Or was the recording passed straight to the press?
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  #847  
Old 02.03.2017, 16:32
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Absolutely they should have gone to the police. Are you mad?

If i had evidence of illegal activity i would not go to the papers, id go to the police. Newspapers sell stories, Police enforce laws.

Now, stop deflecting and answer the question:

Why would you go to a journalist and not the police, if public safety was your priority.?
You're accusing me of deflecting? Thatís rich.
Obviously I don't know the people involved so I can't really answer why they went to a journalist and not the police. If you want me to assume I would guess:

a) Selling the story for money.
b) They had attempted to alert the authorities and felt they were being ignored or not enough was being done.

As i've repeatedly stated, I just thought that the mosque leaders and most of their congregation would be pleased to see extremists purged from the mosque.
And it doesnít really look that way, as for their efforts they were first assaulted and now the mosque wants to press charges against them.

It almost seems like they are being punished for exposing the extremist elements within the mosque.
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  #848  
Old 02.03.2017, 16:45
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Now, in a population of 1,600,000,000, there will undoubtedly be a small percentage (which makes a significant number nonetheless) who either through their own interpretation or somebody else's do follow it literally. I dont argue this.
How small is this percentage though? I know it's hard to answer as there doesn't appear to be a great deal of research into the topic.

Nevertheless, Pew Research have published studies:

Only Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa were asked whether they view the Quran as the word of God or a book written by men; across most of the African nations polled, nine-in-ten or more Muslims say that the Quran is the word of God, including more than seven-in-ten who believe it should be taken literally, word for word.

Granted, the study was limited to Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa, yet it shows that 70% do take the Quran literally. That doesn't really seem like a 'small percentage' as you claim.
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  #849  
Old 02.03.2017, 18:29
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Its not meant to be taken literally, and ultimately they are instructed to obey the laws of the land. So that would be domestic abuse and thus prohibited.
Hahaha, yeah, just a "tiny minority" doesn't follow what the quran says.
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  #850  
Old 02.03.2017, 18:35
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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So, you have 3 individual photos from the Daily Mail, a lebanese TV network, and an Australian News network.

In other words, your evidence is some pictures you got from google after using a (i'm sure impartial) search term.

This does not evidence make.

Now, in a population of 1,600,000,000, there will undoubtedly be a small percentage (which makes a significant number nonetheless) who either through their own interpretation or somebody else's do follow it literally. I dont argue this.

However, that it is a substantial enough percentage for you to be able to consider them representative of the global Muslim population is yet to be supported by evidence.

I wait with baited breath.
How do you react when 1/3 of the FRENCH Muslim population think in some "specific cases" terrorist attacks are OK?

And that a large portion of Muslims world wide think they would like to live under sharia law?

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  #851  
Old 03.03.2017, 10:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

School bans four year old from wearing a veil in school. Equality chief tries to overturn ban. FOUR YEARS OLD.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...nother-trojan/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ed...-a7542926.html
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  #852  
Old 03.03.2017, 10:39
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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School bans four year old from wearing a veil in school. Equality chief tries to overturn ban. FOUR YEARS OLD.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...nother-trojan/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ed...-a7542926.html
That is undoubtedly messed up. Poor child.
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  #853  
Old 03.03.2017, 11:11
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You're accusing me of deflecting? Thatís rich.
Obviously I don't know the people involved so I can't really answer why they went to a journalist and not the police. If you want me to assume I would guess:

a) Selling the story for money.
b) They had attempted to alert the authorities and felt they were being ignored or not enough was being done.

As i've repeatedly stated, I just thought that the mosque leaders and most of their congregation would be pleased to see extremists purged from the mosque.
And it doesnít really look that way, as for their efforts they were first assaulted and now the mosque wants to press charges against them.

It almost seems like they are being punished for exposing the extremist elements within the mosque.

So you think in this particular climate when the police are more likely to over-investigate rather than under-investigate, when everyone is on edge, the police would have ignored video evidence of inciting hate? Not likely.

Its more likely the former - they found a way to sell the story for money.
Which damages the credibility of the whole sorry saga.

Which, in turn, brings us all the way back around to the people being filmed, who weren't aware of the sermon. The newspaper has a misleading video of them attending a sermon that incited hate, that was obtained by paying for it. Even though they are perfectly innocent (and the newspaper likely knows this), the newspaper could well have gone public with the video, and thereby risk their safety. God knows there is no shortage of right wing morons looking for a target-rich environment, who need only the most tenuous of links to actual, dangerous extremism before they go postal.

Extremism hurts the normal Muslims more than most, and they are keen to see it stamped out - but not by putting a big target on their own backs. Self preservation.

For many of my Muslim friends, this i exactly what they are afraid of - that they will be harmed by somebody who has been led to believe they are dangerous in some way. The majority of them are now very guarded about their personal beliefs, and if asked by someone they do not know well, simply claim to be atheist or agnostic.

I dont know about you, but having to hide your personal beliefs for fear of retaliation or harm, doesn't seem right in the 21st century in Switzerland.

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School bans four year old from wearing a veil in school. Equality chief tries to overturn ban. FOUR YEARS OLD.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...nother-trojan/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ed...-a7542926.html
Yeah, except that the ban was challenged on the basis of the governmental Equality Act, not because Muslims kicked up a fuss. You will note the girl herself didn't bother putting up a fight, and her father, aside from seeking advice, didn't either. As a matter of fact, it seems like the people defending the schools decision were, in fact, Muslims.

That said, for Dame Louise Casey to start publicly asking if this incident meant that lessons from the trojan horse scandal had not been learned (implying that extremism was being imported into the school by the labour council) is a little disingenuous and unhelpful. That was a serious issue of dangerous conservatism being introduced surreptitiously, and this was a minor disagreement about dress code. That said, she has done some fantastic work for the homeless and for integration, so i can give her the benefit of the doubt.

So what we have is a local council telling a local school that their dress code may be in breach of a governmental law, which kicked off a conversation and in the end nothing happened and no policy was changed.
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  #854  
Old 03.03.2017, 11:12
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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How do you react when 1/3 of the FRENCH Muslim population think in some "specific cases" terrorist attacks are OK?

And that a large portion of Muslims world wide think they would like to live under sharia law?
Well if its on a youtube video, it must be true.
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  #855  
Old 03.03.2017, 12:53
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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So you think in this particular climate when the police are more likely to over-investigate rather than under-investigate, when everyone is on edge, the police would have ignored video evidence of inciting hate? Not likely.

Its more likely the former - they found a way to sell the story for money.
Which damages the credibility of the whole sorry saga.

Which, in turn, brings us all the way back around to the people being filmed, who weren't aware of the sermon. The newspaper has a misleading video of them attending a sermon that incited hate, that was obtained by paying for it. Even though they are perfectly innocent (and the newspaper likely knows this), the newspaper could well have gone public with the video, and thereby risk their safety. God knows there is no shortage of right wing morons looking for a target-rich environment, who need only the most tenuous of links to actual, dangerous extremism before they go postal.
You keep banging on about the innocent people included in the film Ė yet the film was never released to the public was it?
Seems strange to keep using that as an excuse considering that it never happened.

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For many of my Muslim friends, this i exactly what they are afraid of - that they will be harmed by somebody who has been led to believe they are dangerous in some way. The majority of them are now very guarded about their personal beliefs, and if asked by someone they do not know well, simply claim to be atheist or agnostic.

I dont know about you, but having to hide your personal beliefs for fear of retaliation or harm, doesn't seem right in the 21st century in Switzerland.
I get what you're saying, however I don't think being an apologist and a denialist for Islam is helping their cause whatsoever.
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  #856  
Old 03.03.2017, 13:22
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You keep banging on about the innocent people included in the film – yet the film was never released to the public was it?
Seems strange to keep using that as an excuse considering that it never happened.

I get what you're saying, however I don't think being an apologist and a denialist for Islam is helping their cause whatsoever.
well, then, let me tell you what did happen.

Two guys secretly (and possibly with malicious intent) filmed a group of people attending a sermon that those people might not have agreed with. They released this to the media, without asking the police or anyone in any actual authority.

In other words, the media has these people on film, attending an illegal sermon. Now, despite the fact that those people had nothing to do with the sermon, and are likely innocent of everything other than complying with a strange tradition, someone, somewhere has film of them that could, in theory at least, be used for blackmail.

Were that film to be leaked by an overzealous whistle blower, or accidentally released into the public domain, the ramifications could be far worse. That possibility now exists. That danger is now real.

There is a reason we have privacy laws, and privacy rights. Whether you agree with the purpose or not, rights and laws were violated, and this should be investigated. The police should (finally) be given a chance to sort this whole mess out.

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I get what you're saying, however I don't think being an apologist and a denialist for Islam is helping their cause whatsoever
Im not sure you do. No one is being an 'apologist' or 'denialist' (whatever that means), and least of all the people it affects most.

Last edited by J2488; 03.03.2017 at 15:00.
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  #857  
Old 03.03.2017, 13:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

In other news, there is at least one woman who, at least for now, is happy with Saudis arcane laws regarding women drivers:

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Saudiís highways authorities have cleared a woman of traffic fines totaling $80,000, even though it was her car involved in the offences.

The womanís car was the one being driven, but it was her estranged husband at the wheel shortly after she filed for divorce as a form of revenge.

The jilted man committed a whopping 375 traffic offences in Jeddah, in the womanís car, Saudi daily Okaz reported.

The woman initially received the fines, but after explaining what had happened, the authorities transferred to her ex-husbandís name.
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/vari...backfires.html
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  #858  
Old 03.03.2017, 15:14
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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In other words, the media has these people on film, attending an illegal sermon.
And rightfully so.

Tom
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  #859  
Old 03.03.2017, 15:27
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Extremism hurts the normal Muslims more than most, and they are keen to see it stamped out - but not by putting a big target on their own backs. Self preservation.
Keen, but not keen enough to inform the police themselves or even to challenge the extremists ?
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Old 06.03.2017, 11:45
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Keen, but not keen enough to inform the police themselves or even to challenge the extremists ?
Unless they have the gift of foresight, how could they inform the police about an illegal sermon, before the sermon was given?

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