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-   -   All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe) (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/244043-all-about-muslims-wake-terrorist-attacks-europe.html)

amogles 28.08.2017 10:49

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2838069)
I think inciting violence towards ANY group of people needs to be respected, regardless of the group. Is it legal to commit murder in Switzerland, so long as the person you kill is a "Nazi"? :msnsarcastic:

It is legal to commit murder if the person is terminally ill and has an EXIT membership card.

But it's still not OK to say the only good terminall ill EXIT member is a dead EXIT member.

All sweepingly negative statements need to be treated with great care. I don't think any groups should get special treatment in that respect.

marton 28.08.2017 11:31

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2838030)
And I agree and abide by those rules 100%, and really haven't seen any violation of them here either.

FYI, if somebody points out that the majority of Terror attacks today are carried out by Muslims, that's not "bigotry" or "encouraging hatred or violence" towards a group, that's more of an "uncomfortable fact".

People only see what they want to see.

For example, what about the recent post about the quality of Muslim neighbourhoods?

marton 28.08.2017 11:38

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2838030)
And I agree and abide by those rules 100%, and really haven't seen any violation of them here either.

FYI, if somebody points out that the majority of Terror attacks today are carried out by Muslims, that's not "bigotry" or "encouraging hatred or violence" towards a group, that's more of an "uncomfortable fact".

Then you ignore the argument that somebody who commits an act of terror is not a true Muslim because they are not following their faith correctly so would be better to write "majority of Terror attacks today are carried out by people who claim to be Muslims"

amogles 28.08.2017 11:52

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2838142)
Then you ignore the argument that somebody who commits an act of terror is not a true Muslim because they are not following their faith correctly so would be better to write "majority of Terror attacks today are carried out by people who claim to be Muslims"

The Koran says that anybody who procliams that Allah is great is a Muslim.

Are you suggesting that the terrorists have never procliamed that?

You don't stop being a Christian if you transgress against one or several of the 10 Commandments. You just become a Christian in need of forgiveness.

Is Islam any different?

lewton 28.08.2017 12:15

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2837675)
""Assad must go" repeat the martons of every forum" as you were using a small "m" I assume you did not mean me personally?
In fact I have never posted "Assad must go", I have nothing against opticians! :D

Apologies then for referring to you, I remembered wrong.


The point is valid for all those people who repeat the mantra that Assad must go because he is bad.

MrVertigo 28.08.2017 12:17

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2838154)
The Koran says that anybody who procliams that Allah is great is a Muslim.

Wrong. You are quoting Koran out of context and without understanding it.
It needs more than that to be considered as Muslim. Plus "Allah is great" means "God is great". I know many christians and jews who say "God is great". Does it make them muslims? You are using the word Allah as a symbol for Islam in the West here and not the true meaning which is God.
This is typical misreading and misusage to support wrong point of view without validation and verification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2838154)
Are you suggesting that the terrorists have never procliamed that?

I heard many tele-evangelists shouting "God is great"...are they muslims?
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2838154)
You don't stop being a Christian if you transgress against one or several of the 10 Commandments. You just become a Christian in need of forgiveness.

Wrong again. There is the notion of excommunication. ISIS/Daech has been excommunicated by thousands of scholars and ulemas from different muslim school of thoughts (shi'a, sunni,.....). I urge you to Google "fatwa against ISIS" and you will find 100s of links to those fatwas. Please read them instead of misreading Kuran. Most of the ISIS djihadis fall in the trap of ISIS because of lack of knowledge, education and understanding of Islam . Many studies show that they haven't practiced religion before joining ISIS. I consider that ISIS was successful in their media communication when I see people confusing Islam=ISIS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2838154)
Is Islam any different?

yes see above.

esto 28.08.2017 12:33

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2838154)
The Koran says that anybody who procliams that Allah is great is a Muslim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 2838170)
Wrong.

Who are you to say who is/isn't a Muslim, or anything else? There many interpretations and branches of religion. If somebody identifies him/herself with a certain religion, then he/she is regardless who likes it or not. Nobody ever said that Nazis,KKK, etc. were NOT Christians because of their views/actions. Their views/actions were viewed separately from their religion. Nobody disputed the Crusaders were not "real" Christians. However you seem to have the power within you to judge who is a "real" Muslim and who isn't? Interesting :msnsarcastic:

MrVertigo 28.08.2017 12:45

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2838184)
Who are you to say who is/isn't a Muslim, or anything else? There many interpretations and branches of religion. If somebody identifies him/herself with a certain religion, then he/she is regardless who likes it or not. Nobody ever said that Nazis,KKK, etc. were NOT Christians because of their views/actions. Their views/actions were viewed separately from their religion. Nobody disputed the Crusaders were not "real" Christians. However you seem to have the power within you to judge who is a "real" Muslim and who isn't? Interesting :msnsarcastic:

Calm down and be rational. Read carefully what I wrote before answering. Google for the fatwas against ISIS again.

- From my muslim background and ability to read the original text and interpretations in Arabic, I have a *slight* advantage compared to you. It's probably the biggest absurd thing I heard that saying "God is great" makes you muslim. If you think that it's that simple then I fully understand where you're coming from and why you have this *opinion*.

- I *personally* don't say who is Muslim or not...but thousands of imams, scholars and Ulemas from well known school of thoughts who represent more than 90% of the muslims agree together on a fatwa that declares ISIS heretic then I tend to believe them more than any one in EF including you.
I know it's sad for your argumentation against Islam but that's the truth. Live with it.

- So if the pope excommunicates someone from catholic church then he's wrong or has no power to do that from your perspective as representative of the catholic churc

esto 28.08.2017 12:52

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 2838193)
Calm down and be rational. Read carefully what I wrote before answering. Google for the fatwas against ISIS again.

- I *personally* don't say who is Muslim or not...but thousands of imams, scholars and Ulemas from well known school of thoughts who represent more than 90% of the muslims agree together on a fatwa that declares ISIS heretic then I tend to believe them more than any one in EF including you.

So then you agree that if someone, eg. a terrorist, proclaims themselves to be a Muslim, then they are. Period. If a group of other Muslims put a Fatwa on them, really has no affect on that persons beliefs, does it.



Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 2838193)
- So if the pope excommunicates someone from catholic church then he's wrong or has no power to do that from your perspective as representative of the catholic church?

If the Catholic church ex-communicates you, that doesn't mean that you are no longer a Christian. :rolleyes:

MrVertigo 28.08.2017 13:03

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2838202)
So then you agree that if someone, eg. a terrorist, proclaims themselves to be a Muslim, then they are. Period. If a group of other Muslims put a Fatwa on them, really has no affect on that persons beliefs, does it.
(...)

No. If he is a follower of ISIS (which they are often) then they are not considered as muslims whatever he claims. Again it's not some "random other group of muslims" that decide that, these are experts in theology, religion, Ulemas etc.... ISIS is called *heretic* or khawarij.

J2488 28.08.2017 13:04

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2838202)
So then you agree that if someone, eg. a terrorist, proclaims themselves to be a Muslim, then they are. Period. If a group of other Muslims put a Fatwa on them, really has no affect on that persons beliefs, does it.




If the Catholic church ex-communicates you, that doesn't mean that you are no longer a Christian. :rolleyes:


as MrV says, talking utter nonsense.



By your definition, if the terrorist said 'god is great' then all you can infer is that he believes in a divine power. Theres absolutely nothing in that statement that makes it unique to any one god. Even the word 'god' is an abstract term for an abstract being. that small, 3 letter phrase is not enough evidence in itself.


Now, when you add on, as MrV has mentioned, the fact that thousands of religious scholars and experts have actively denounced ISIS, i am much more inclined to think maybe theyre more of a cult than a 1.7billion-people movement.


If the catholic church excommunicates you, you cant claim to be working in its interests, can you?

amogles 28.08.2017 13:10

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 2838193)

- So if the pope excommunicates someone from catholic church then he's wrong or has no power to do that from your perspective as representative of the catholic churc

Excommunication means that the pope bans or suspends you from receiving Communion. The clue is in the word ex - communicate.

This is not at all the same as expelling somebody from the Catholicism, let alone Christianity. Nobody has the power to do that.

If a referee books a soccer player a yellow or even a red card, does that mean he is no longer a soccer player?

yacek 28.08.2017 13:12

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2837352)
This is something that I've been wondering about.

Every time Islamic terrorists kill in EU, there are a bunch of news articles "Muslims Fear Backlash", and #LoveDiversity and things like that..."oh, he was just crazy, you can't blame all Muslims"...."the Muslims are marginalized in our society, it's society's fault".... put flowers at the attack location, change Facebook pic to the flag of the country attacked....

...however, when the alt-right Nazis killed one person, there was NONE of that. The Left was fuming with hatred, saying (correctly, BTW) that this is not tolerable in our society. ...but why don't they fume with the same hatred towards Jihadists? Why are they not saying that Islamic terror attacks are unacceptable? Why are they not demanding the Muslim communities do something about the problem? Where are the protest marches for change?

If you want to look at the death tolls, "Nazis" killed about 1 or 2 (?) people in the last 3 years, .... Islamic radicals have killed at least 400-500 in EU alone ....if you want to count Africa and Mid-East, then it's easily into the thousands. But from watching all the protests, apparently the number one threat to our society are Nazis :silly:

Don't worry, the West still has the upper hand here:
- Iraq: about a million, and
- Afghanistan: several hundred thousands, and
- Libya, Islamic State, Syria, drones over Pakistan and so on and so on.

While Western military bombs out any resistance in Middle East and Asia with hundreds of thousands of collateral damage, the Western media tries to instill peace on its own territory.
The muslim/Arab/... immigrants from the bombed lands are their peoples natural allies, so everything must be undertaken to persuade them that they don't belong there, and the bombed peoples aren't theirs, and that they're welcome in the host countries, and the same to the natives of course - i.e. your Syrian might have a family there, and you might paint bombs with "greetings from Manchester", but you're supposed to be peaceful next-door neighbors ignoring all these issues and family/tribe/nation allegiances.

The goal of the political correctness of the media is following the political consensus of avoiding escalating tensions locally and keeping the society peaceful.
The question is what the Arab/muslim activists in Europe really want - do they only want US army out of holy land in Middle East, or they also want a sovereign community in Europe. Then ceasing hostilities in ME and Asia might not stop terror in Europe, but would then the smoldering terror be tolerated and societies submit to it?

MrVertigo 28.08.2017 13:13

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2838218)
Excommunication means that the pope bans you from receiving communion. The clue is in the word ex - communicate.

This is not at all the same as expelling somebody from the Catholicism, let alone Christianity. Nobody has the power to do that.

If a referee books a soccer player a yellow or even a red card, does that mean he is no longer a soccer player?

Seriously...... If FIFA cancels your license as professional soccer player then you can't play in any professional club and you're not longer a professional soccer player. Does this work better for you as comparison?

I will stop reading and answering this thread.

amogles 28.08.2017 13:17

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 2838170)
Wrong. You are quoting Koran out of context and without understanding it.
It needs more than that to be considered as Muslim. Plus "Allah is great" means "God is great". I know many christians and jews who say "God is great". Does it make them muslims? You are using the word Allah as a symbol for Islam in the West here and not the true meaning which is God.
This is typical misreading and misusage to support wrong point of view without validation and verification.


I heard many tele-evangelists shouting "God is great"...are they muslims?

It depends on what your definition of God is. I think that when Muslims speak of Allah, they speak of the God of the Koran. Of course the word can also be understood to mean any god, and you can open a discussion on whether that is the same god or a different one. But when a Muslim says, God is great, it rather tenuous to argue that maybe he is referring to Jupiter or Belenos or to The Manitu. I think you can rule that out from the context and situation in which the person is speaking.

An evangelical preacher saying God is Great is clearly referring to the Biblical God of Christianity, not to the Allah of the Koran. Even if in some smartarse philosophical way they may or may not be identical.

amogles 28.08.2017 13:19

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 2838223)
Seriously...... If FIFA cancels your license as professional soccer player then you can't play in any professional club and you're not longer a professional soccer player. Does this work better for you as comparison?

I will stop reading and answering this thread.

I spoke of the referee. I have never heard of the referee cancelling anyone's contract during the course of a game.

And also, you have taken that last bit out of context. Read the entire post and try again.

esto 28.08.2017 13:19

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 2838211)
No. If he is a follower of ISIS (which they are often) then they are not considered as muslims whatever he claims. Again it's not some "random other group of muslims" that decide that, these are experts in theology, religion, Ulemas etc.... ISIS is called *heretic* or khawarij.

IS...."Islamic State"...who are basing their lives and killing / dying on their literal and strict interpretation of the Koran...are not actually Muslims?

So what is the criteria to be a "real" Muslim? I understand there is no top-down approach, so really nobody to regulate.

esto 28.08.2017 13:21

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 2838223)
Seriously...... If FIFA cancels your license as professional soccer player then you can't play in any professional club and you're not longer a professional soccer player. Does this work better for you as comparison?

I will stop reading and answering this thread.

...but FIFA can't say that you are no longer a soccer player...

Yes, better to leave if you are faced with uncomfortable realities...

amogles 28.08.2017 13:26

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2838230)
...but FIFA can't say that you are no longer a soccer player...

Yes, better to leave if you are faced with uncomfortable realities...

I think he's trying to tell us that ISIS are Mulsims but not Professional Muslims.

Or maybe I've just lost the thread of what exactly it is that we are disputing.

Pedantic arguments about semantics are more comfortable than confronting the actual problem.

st2lemans 28.08.2017 13:46

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2838154)
The Koran says that anybody who procliams that Allah is great is a Muslim.

And if I were to proclaim that Allah is a great wanker? :confused:

Tom


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