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-   -   All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe) (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/244043-all-about-muslims-wake-terrorist-attacks-europe.html)

Pashosh 28.08.2017 17:29

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 2838392)
You and google want to teach me and tell me what shahada means???

The top 5 sites said it, most of thewm by Muslim, so I found it reliable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 2838392)
I see that we have a bunch of people in this thread who construct their opinion and prejudice based on false, unverified information.

Provide a serious source with better information on how to become a Muslim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 2838392)
Accusing ALL muslims of all potential problems just by reading 20minutes or Reader's digest and quoting Kuran without context and basic understanding like most ISIS djihadist.

Who are these "Bunch" blaming all Muslims for all potential problems ? again - a few quotes will do.

esto 28.08.2017 17:34

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by J2488 (Post 2838436)
BEcause, of course, the answer to that question and others of its ilk, which has plagued humanity for thousands of years, is going to be found on a small internet forum in Switzerland.

What is a better, gnoring the problem? Saying there is no problem? Saying there is no solution? I would prefer an open dialog and looking for a solution

marton 28.08.2017 20:49

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 2838170)
Wrong. You are quoting Koran out of context and without understanding it.
It needs more than that to be considered as Muslim. Plus "Allah is great" means "God is great". I know many christians and jews who say "God is great". Does it make them muslims? You are using the word Allah as a symbol for Islam in the West here and not the true meaning which is God.
This is typical misreading and misusage to support wrong point of view without validation and verification.


I heard many tele-evangelists shouting "God is great"...are they muslims?

Wrong again. There is the notion of excommunication. ISIS/Daech has been excommunicated by thousands of scholars and ulemas from different muslim school of thoughts (shi'a, sunni,.....). I urge you to Google "fatwa against ISIS" and you will find 100s of links to those fatwas. Please read them instead of misreading Kuran. Most of the ISIS djihadis fall in the trap of ISIS because of lack of knowledge, education and understanding of Islam . Many studies show that they haven't practiced religion before joining ISIS. I consider that ISIS was successful in their media communication when I see people confusing Islam=ISIS.


yes see above.

Very true!

Amazing level of ignorance here about Islam by the people who pontificate on this topic. Quoting a few passages from a holy book completely out of context does not make one a religious scholar, quite the opposite in fact!

Capo 28.08.2017 21:06

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2838584)
Very true!

Amazing level of ignorance here about Islam by the people who pontificate on this topic. Quoting a few passages from a holy book completely out of context does not make one a religious scholar, quite the opposite in fact!

Well, I think this scholar knows much more than anyone from this forum:


Castro 28.08.2017 21:15

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Capo (Post 2838595)
Well, I think this scholar knows much more than anyone from this forum:


Ayaan Hirsi Ali is listed as an anti Muslim extremist by the Southern Poverty Law Centre.

Quote:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a Somali-born activist who says she endured female genital mutilation and fled civil wars and an arranged marriage in Africa. She then moved to the Netherlands and became a parliamentarian for a time. But key parts of the story she told Dutch immigration authorities and the public there turned out to be false — she had never witnessed any civil war, attendees said she was at her wedding despite her claim to have not been present, and her husband paid her way to Europe and later granted her a divorce. Leaving the Netherlands after quitting its Parliament in disgrace, Hirsi Ali became a citizen of the United States, accepting an invitation to join the conservative American Enterprise Institute. Although she now positions herself as an ex-Muslim champion of women’s rights, her anti-Muslim rhetoric is remarkably toxic. In 2007, she told Reason magazine that the West should “defeat” Islam and that “we are war with Islam.” The same year, she said that Islam was “the new fascism” and a “destructive, nihilistic cult of death” in an interview with The London Evening Standard. In 2014, Brandeis University withdrew its offer of an honorary degree for her, saying that it had been unaware of her vitriolic attacks on Islam. While in the Netherlands, she wrote the script for a short and provocative film about women and Islam directed by the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was murdered in the street by a jihadist a short time after its release. The murderer left a note threatening to also kill Hirsi Ali pinned to his victim’s body with a knife.

marton 28.08.2017 21:17

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2838184)
Who are you to say who is/isn't a Muslim, or anything else? There many interpretations and branches of religion. If somebody identifies him/herself with a certain religion, then he/she is regardless who likes it or not. Nobody ever said that Nazis,KKK, etc. were NOT Christians because of their views/actions. Their views/actions were viewed separately from their religion. Nobody disputed the Crusaders were not "real" Christians. However you seem to have the power within you to judge who is a "real" Muslim and who isn't? Interesting :msnsarcastic:

"If somebody identifies him/herself with a certain religion, then he/she is regardless who likes it or not. " Wrong, if you claim to be of a religion but you do not follow the religion correctly then you are not.

"Nobody ever said that Nazis,KKK, etc. were NOT Christians because of their views/actions." You do not know much about the Nazis do you? Their long term aim was to eradicate Christianity in the areas they controlled, Martin Bormann, Joseph Goebbels, Alfred Rosenberg, Heinrich Himmler led this strategy. See the Donovan documents for details.
70% of the SS officers withdrew from their Christian denominations.
18% of Polish Catholic priests were murdered by the Nazis, 2,600 Catholic priests murdered in Dachau.
When a protest statement was read from the pulpits of Confessing churches in March 1935, for example, Nazi authorities reacted forcefully by briefly arresting over 700 pastors.
After the 1937 papal encyclical Mit brennender Sorge ("With burning concern") was read from Catholic pulpits, the Gestapo confiscated copies from diocesan offices throughout the country.

You also do not know much about the KKK! They claimed to be Protestant Christians but "virtually every" Protestant denomination officially denounced the KKK
Source Kenneth T. Jackson, in his "The Ku Klux Klan in the City 1915-1930"

marton 28.08.2017 21:25

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2838202)
So then you agree that if someone, eg. a terrorist, proclaims themselves to be a Muslim, then they are. Period. If a group of other Muslims put a Fatwa on them, really has no affect on that persons beliefs, does it.

If the Catholic church ex-communicates you, that doesn't mean that you are no longer a Christian. :rolleyes:

If the Catholic church ex-communicates you then you are no longer a Catholic! :p

Pashosh 28.08.2017 21:27

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2838600)
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is listed as an anti Muslim extremist by the Southern Poverty Law Centre.

That settles it then. no need for further discussion - facts are irrelevant. got it.

Castro 28.08.2017 21:30

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pashosh (Post 2838611)
That settles it then. no need for further discussion - facts are irrelevant. got it.

My dear Pashosh, if somebody lies extensively about their background and makes a fortune milking the right-wing lecture circuit then I think they rather discredit themselves.

See also Majid Nawaaz

amogles 28.08.2017 21:32

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2838609)
If the Catholic church ex-communicates you then you are no longer a Catholic! :p

Only in the world of alternative facts.

In the real world, excommunication simply suspends you from being able to receive sacraments.

marton 28.08.2017 21:34

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2838218)
Excommunication means that the pope bans or suspends you from receiving Communion. The clue is in the word ex - communicate.

This is not at all the same as expelling somebody from the Catholicism, let alone Christianity. Nobody has the power to do that.

If a referee books a soccer player a yellow or even a red card, does that mean he is no longer a soccer player?

No, you are wrong!
The Latin root is excommunicare which means "put out of the community" so not only are you banned from receiving Communion but also the privileges of the church; cutting a person off from a religious society.
Perhaps you can explain how you can call yourself a Catholic when you are banned from entering Catholic churches and other establishments and banned from communicating and confessing to Catholic Priests.

greenmount 28.08.2017 21:36

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2838617)
No, you are wrong!
The Latin root is excommunicare which means "put out of the community" so not only are you banned from receiving Communion but also the privileges of the church; cutting a person off from a religious society.
Perhaps you can explain how you can call yourself a Catholic when you are banned from entering Catholic churches and other establishments and banned from communicating and confessing to Catholic Priests.

You may not be a Catholic but you can stil be a Christian, my dear Marton. Read the history of Christianity.

marton 28.08.2017 21:37

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2838228)
IS...."Islamic State"...who are basing their lives and killing / dying on their literal and strict and incorrect interpretation of the Koran...are not actually Muslims?

So what is the criteria to be a "real" Muslim? I understand there is no top-down approach, so really nobody to regulate.

ftfy :) :)

Medea Fleecestealer 28.08.2017 21:50

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2838604)
"If somebody identifies him/herself with a certain religion, then he/she is regardless who likes it or not. " Wrong, if you claim to be of a religion but you do not follow the religion correctly then you are not.

Define "correctly". If I'm not mistaken there are several different types of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. If people who profess to believe in these religions actually thought about it, they'd realise that no two people believe the same thing and if their God hasn't struck down the "unbelievers/infidels" then he/she/it/they must be quite happy with what they believe too. Alternatively, it just proves they all believe in the equivalent of fairies since if God did exist and was unhappy with said "unbelievers/infidels" he/she/it/they would have struck them all down by now. :p

marton 28.08.2017 21:50

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2838266)
Sure, I've come across this argument before.

But I'm not really sure what it means.

I have never come across any logical test in the theology of any religion that provides a criterium for two gods being identical.

On the contrary, montheistic religions say that there is only one god and no other. Claiming two gods are identical is thus a logical non-starter.

So in fact saying our god is the same as yours is a demeaning thing to say, as that only works if it is meant to imply,

1) there is only one god
2) your god says some things that are different or contradictory to what ours says
3) so either your god does not exist, or he is actually our god but you've misunderstood him.

It is not an argument, it is a statement of fact.
If you do not understand that simple statement that says more about you than it says about the statement.

To try to make it simple for you look at this way, all three religions are Abrahamic religions.
This means each religion was started by Abraham.
Abraham had one God.
The one God of each religion is the same one God of Abraham.
You are free to read the holy book of each religion to confirm each religion was started by Abraham. :)

Pashosh 28.08.2017 21:52

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2838613)
My dear Pashosh, if somebody lies extensively about their background and makes a fortune milking the right-wing lecture circuit then I think they rather discredit themselves.

See also Majid Nawaaz

Dear Castro."Lied extensively" is an exaggeration . She was forced into marriage and her family threatened her life . This is quite common for Muslim women who dare to marry or have sex with non Muslims - in fact, it's illegal for a Muslim woman to marry a non Muslim man in some countries (Algeria, for example) .

True enough - she lied in her Asylum application. Luckily current Asylum seekers are paragons of virtue and don't lie.

Your page is called "A journalists manual field guide to anti muslim extremists". As far as I know,Ms. Ali never killed anyone or called to kill anyone. hardly an extremist.

But regardless of Ms. Hirsi Ali history - Ad Hominems are not valid arguments. Don't they teach you this in Mod school ?

marton 28.08.2017 21:56

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2838314)
Islamic Radicals base their whole lives around their interpretation of the Koran, to say they are not "real" Muslims and have "nothing to do with Islam" is not only bizarre, it's damaging.

The first step to solving a problem, is admitting that there is one. I can understand peaceful Muslims wanting to distance themselves form the Radicals like IS, but in fact by doing so, they are saying "it's not my problem" when in fact it is, because they are clearly an extension of the religion, and the solution needs to come from within the religion itself.

It's sad that peaceful Muslims, like I assume Mr.Vertigo is, don't want to confront or accept that :(

"the solution needs to come from within the religion itself."But as was already posted there are many fatwas against ISIS so there is a solution from within the religion?

marton 28.08.2017 22:07

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 2838618)
You may not be a Catholic but you can stil be a Christian, my dear Marton. Read the history of Christianity.

When did I post you are not Christian? Martin Luther is the prime example.

You are seeing words in my post that I did not write!

I clearly posted "how can you call yourself Catholic"?

esto 28.08.2017 22:12

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
You know what, I don't give a flying fig who's book says what, who is a "real" Christian/Muslim/whatever...what I do care about is ending the violence that we are seeing committed in the name of Islam every day all around the world. ANd so far I have not heard any answers here, only excuses, denials, etc..

marton 28.08.2017 22:14

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2838656)
You know what, I don't give a flying fig who's book says what, who is a "real" Christian/Muslim/whatever...what I do care about is ending the violence that we are seeing committed in the name of Islam every day all around the world. ANd so far I have not heard any answers here, only excuses, denials, etc..

You see only what you want to see :)


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