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-   -   All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe) (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/244043-all-about-muslims-wake-terrorist-attacks-europe.html)

Castro 29.08.2017 10:33

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeUK (Post 2838816)
Depends on your definition of terrorism. For sure millions of people have been slaughtered within that timeframe in allegiance to imaginary friends.

You are conflating war and terrorism. Anyway the well worn myth that religion is the main cause of war completely falls down when you examine the facts. The Napoleonic wars, American Revolution, French Revolution, American Civil War, World War I, the Russia Revolution, World War II, conflicts in Korea and Vietnam etc.. were not religious in nature or cause and yet the numbers killed reach almost a quarter of a billion. Three decidedly unreligious men (Mao Zedong, Josef Stalin and Pol Pot) are between themselves responsible for upwards of 100 million dead.

According to the Encyclopaedia of Wars, which lists 1763 separate conflicts, only 123 were judged to have had a religious dimension (7%) and when you look at total casualties of wars the numbers are even lower i.e. 2% of all persons killed in conflict were in religious wars.

Not a great set of data to base a sweeping generalisation, and I say this as someone who believes in secularism.

pilatus1 29.08.2017 10:44

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2838840)
You are conflating war and terrorism. Anyway the well worn myth that religion is the main cause of war completely falls down when you examine the facts. The Napoleonic wars, American Revolution, French Revolution, American Civil War, World War I, the Russia Revolution, World War II, conflicts in Korea and Vietnam etc.. were not religious in nature or cause and yet the numbers killed reach almost a quarter of a billion. Three decidedly unreligious men (Mao Zedong, Josef Stalin and Pol Pot) are between themselves responsible for upwards of 100 million dead.

According to the Encyclopaedia of Wars, which lists 1763 separate conflicts, only 123 were judged to have had a religious dimension (7%) and when you look at total casualties of wars the numbers are even lower i.e. 2% of all persons killed in conflict were in religious wars.

Not a great set of data to base a sweeping generalisation, and I say this as someone who believes in secularism.

It all depends how you define religion.

Castro 29.08.2017 10:49

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pilatus1 (Post 2838846)
It all depends how you define religion.

LOL, just widen the goalposts and I'm Lionel Messi

amogles 29.08.2017 10:55

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2838840)
You are conflating war and terrorism. Anyway the well worn myth that religion is the main cause of war completely falls down when you examine the facts. The Napoleonic wars, American Revolution, French Revolution, American Civil War, World War I, the Russia Revolution, World War II, conflicts in Korea and Vietnam etc.. were not religious in nature or cause and yet the numbers killed reach almost a quarter of a billion. Three decidedly unreligious men (Mao Zedong, Josef Stalin and Pol Pot) are between themselves responsible for upwards of 100 million dead.

According to the Encyclopaedia of Wars, which lists 1763 separate conflicts, only 123 were judged to have had a religious dimension (7%) and when you look at total casualties of wars the numbers are even lower i.e. 2% of all persons killed in conflict were in religious wars.

Not a great set of data to base a sweeping generalisation, and I say this as someone who believes in secularism.

When it comes to people like Napoleon, I think it's just an example of one man's mania dragging a whole continent into war. As far as I am aware there was no overarching dogma or belief that Napoleon stood for. He was just a man whose ambitions could never be satisfied and who understood how to motivate people for his next crazy idea. If he were alive in the present age he might be an Elton Musk or a Steve Jobs.

But other wars, such as those involving Stalin or Mao were indeed driven by dogmatic beliefs.

I think it is not religion or dogma in itself that is the problem, but the belief that your religion or dogma is better than the other guy's and that gives you the right to convert him at gunpoint.

Castro 29.08.2017 11:01

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2838854)
But other wars, such as those involving Stalin or Mao were indeed driven by dogmatic beliefs.

I think it is not religion or dogma in itself that is the problem, but the belief that your religion or dogma is better than the other guy's and that gives you the right to convert him at gunpoint.

Well then we agree that eliminating religion will not solve our problems. At our core we are all the same regardless of whether we believe in God or Manchester United.

pilatus1 29.08.2017 11:01

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2838848)
LOL, just widen the goalposts and I'm Lionel Messi

There's not much difference in killing in the name of 'god', and killing in the name of 'no god'.

amogles 29.08.2017 11:08

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2838858)
Well then we agree that eliminating religion will not solve our problems. At our core we are all the same regardless of whether we believe in God or Manchester United.

Yes.

I've never disputed this.

esto 29.08.2017 11:12

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2838854)
But other wars, such as those involving Stalin or Mao were indeed driven by dogmatic beliefs.

I think it is not religion or dogma in itself that is the problem, but the belief that your religion or dogma is better than the other guy's and that gives you the right to convert him at gunpoint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2838858)
Well then we agree that eliminating religion will not solve our problems. At our core we are all the same regardless of whether we believe in God or Manchester United.

Napolean, Hitler, etc. commanded armies. It was a top-down approach. Not all of their soldiers subscribed to the flavor of Nazism, etc. They were soldier taking orders. With religious fanaticism, like Islamic extremists, it's more grass-roots, it's more zealots following an ideology, rather than troops following orders. Which makes it a different type of war when you are fighting an ideology. People need to stop believing in the ideology. That can only be defeated from the inside.

J2488 29.08.2017 11:12

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
I do dispute it.


If you support Manchester united, you are definitely not like me.

amogles 29.08.2017 11:21

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2838869)
Napolean, Hitler, etc. commanded armies. It was a top-down approach. Not all of their soldiers subscribed to the flavor of Nazism, etc. They were soldier taking orders. With religious fanaticism, like Islamic extremists, it's more grass-roots, it's more zealots following an ideology, rather than troops following orders. Which makes it a different type of war when you are fighting an ideology. People need to stop believing in the ideology. That can only be defeated from the inside.

The mechanism may be different, but the effct is similar.

Hitler or Staln may not have had the full support of every single soldier, but had there been sufficient opposition, there would have been a mutiny or an uprising at some point. Of course they also terrorozed people to make them fall into line and forget about any ambitions to rebel. But even there, there is a limit to how long you can do that. Any leader needs the support of a sufficient chunk of the population to stay in power. And he can gain that support either by logical argument, or by ideological manipulation (or more often a mixture of the two, with the latter pretending to be the former).

So maybe the mechanism is different, but at the end of the day the ideology is to blame.

Pashosh 29.08.2017 11:24

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Many of the Genocides, mass killings & massacres in the last 50 years were done by Muslim countries/organizations. much more than the Muslim percentage of world population. Very few Arab countries didn't have a mass killing in their short history perpetrated by Muslims.

Some of the cases were done by secular forces, some by religious - it's not a religious problem, but a cultural problem (culture which is heavily influenced by religion).

Political culture has to change to stop the downward spiral - the "Arab spring" was a false dawn, but history doesn't stand still - there are reasons to be optimistic. People tend to make the right choices when all the bad ones are exhausted :).

Castro 29.08.2017 11:39

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pashosh (Post 2838878)
Many of the Genocides, mass killings & massacres in the last 50 years were done by Muslim countries/organizations. much more than the Muslim percentage of world population. Very few Arab countries didn't have a mass killing in their short history perpetrated by Muslims.

Some of the cases were done by secular forces, some by religious - it's not a religious problem, but a cultural problem (culture which is heavily influenced by religion).

Political culture has to change to stop the downward spiral - the "Arab spring" was a false dawn, but history doesn't stand still - there are reasons to be optimistic. People tend to make the right choices when all the bad ones are exhausted :).

You could also call it the birthing pains of many new nations. Apart from Turkey and Iran the majority of the Middle East was either colonised (Egypt, Sudan, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon etc...) or newly created (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE) and all of this in 'living memory'.

The US and Europe have taken centuries to get to where they are now, and given time I am sure the Middle East will adapt to being more secular and democratic (especially once the oil runs out).

Pashosh 29.08.2017 12:01

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2838885)
You could also call it the birthing pains of many new nations. Apart from Turkey and Iran the majority of the Middle East was either colonised (Egypt, Sudan, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon etc...) or newly created (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE) and all of this in 'living memory'.

The US and Europe have taken centuries to get to where they are now, and given time I am sure the Middle East will adapt to being more secular and democratic (especially once the oil runs out).

Saudi Arabia (part of it), Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE were also colonised - by the Ottomans. Muslims did their part of empire building.

Hopefully the Arab Middle east will reach south american levels of development within our lifetime. And I don't mean Venezuela :msnnerd:

J2488 29.08.2017 12:17

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pashosh (Post 2838878)
Many of the Genocides, mass killings & massacres in the last 50 years were done by Muslim countries/organizations. much more than the Muslim percentage of world population. Very few Arab countries didn't have a mass killing in their short history perpetrated by Muslims.

Some of the cases were done by secular forces, some by religious - it's not a religious problem, but a cultural problem (culture which is heavily influenced by religion).

Political culture has to change to stop the downward spiral - the "Arab spring" was a false dawn, but history doesn't stand still - there are reasons to be optimistic. People tend to make the right choices when all the bad ones are exhausted :).


christ, you really are clueless, arent you?


Slobodan Milosevic called - he wants his bigotry back, as do 25,000 of his victims.


Also, the 800,000 dead tutsies in Rwanda disagree.


And 100,000 Isaaqi somalians.

And 3,000,000 cambodians.


and about 250,000 people from Burundi.

Pashosh 29.08.2017 13:03

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by J2488 (Post 2838912)
christ, you really are clueless, arent you?

Kindly keep to forum rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J2488 (Post 2838912)
Slobodan Milosevic called - he wants his bigotry back, as do 25,000 of his victims.
Also, the 800,000 dead tutsies in Rwanda disagree.
And 100,000 Isaaqi somalians.
And 3,000,000 cambodians.
and about 250,000 people from Burundi.

I clearly stated that the numbers killed by Muslims (muslim and non muslim alike) are much higher than the percentage of Muslims in world population and I stand by my claim.

From Algeria to Yemen, Sudan to Somalia, Bangladesh to Pakistan - massacers are much more common than elsewhere.

Castro, who is very forgiving when it comes to Muslim massacres, attributes this to "birthing pains" of new nations. perhaps.

But why did the pains radiate themselves to non muslim countries ? I think that a culture of blaming your problems on somebody else, rather than try to resolve them plays a much larger role in the violence.

esto 29.08.2017 13:29

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2838876)
The mechanism may be different, but the effct is similar.

Hitler or Staln may not have had the full support of every single soldier, but had there been sufficient opposition, there would have been a mutiny or an uprising at some point. Of course they also terrorozed people to make them fall into line and forget about any ambitions to rebel. But even there, there is a limit to how long you can do that. Any leader needs the support of a sufficient chunk of the population to stay in power. And he can gain that support either by logical argument, or by ideological manipulation (or more often a mixture of the two, with the latter pretending to be the former).

So maybe the mechanism is different, but at the end of the day the ideology is to blame.

You have to consider the base of the ideology. Hitler/Stalin/Napolean had mainly a nationalistic base. When they were gone, things shifted alot. People are proud of their countries, but are willing to change a bit when the next leader comes up.

Islamic terrorism is based on the religion of Islam, not nationalism, which is a huge difference, because religion has a "higher power", "eternal life", etc, involved. People tend to be more fanatical about that, because they are "rewarded" also beyond life. Also, it is not bound to a single country, it's global. And since there are 1 billion (?) Muslims, they have a huge base to recruit people from. Even if they can only recruit a small fraction, it's large in terms of absolute numbers.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2838885)
You could also call it the birthing pains of many new nations. Apart from Turkey and Iran the majority of the Middle East was either colonised (Egypt, Sudan, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon etc...) or newly created (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE) and all of this in 'living memory'.

The US and Europe have taken centuries to get to where they are now, and given time I am sure the Middle East will adapt to being more secular and democratic (especially once the oil runs out).

Estonia became formally a country in 1918, before that they were "colonized" by Germany, Sweden, Russia, and a few others. Yet there is no terrorism (Islamic or otherwise) there at all. I don't see a correlation between colonization and religion-based terrorism.

amogles 29.08.2017 13:53

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2838885)
You could also call it the birthing pains of many new nations. Apart from Turkey and Iran the majority of the Middle East was either colonised (Egypt, Sudan, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon etc...) or newly created (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE) and all of this in 'living memory'.

I don't think it is necessary helpful to view the birth of these fledgling nation states as a "given". We also need to look at the Ottoman Empire, at the things that went wrong there, and especially the settlements after WW1, the Treaty of Sevres etc in which people who didn't fully appreciate the situation on the ground started doodling borders onto maps, and the imagination and wishful thinking of a bunch of civil servants was transferred into reality. Don't get me wrong, the demise of the Ottoman Empire was by and large a good thing. But the carving up of this empire was not really done in the best interests of the peoples living there but was more than anything else a massive exercise in humiliating Turkey.

We are paying the price of that today.

marton 29.08.2017 15:06

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2838823)
If you go back in time you will find that Rugby and Soccer were once the same game, but that the rules evolved differently.

But you wouldn't argue that a Rugby ball is the same shape as a Soccer ball now, would you, or that all the same rules apply?

Just because three major religions were started by the same guy, this does not mean they haven't evolved, each in their own way, and that their present concepts and understanding of God are still identical.

But that does not change the fact they have the same God?
It is not clear what you mean by the religions evolving?
The Koran has not changed for one and a half millennia; the other religions have also not changed their holy books?

marton 29.08.2017 15:29

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2838869)
Napolean, Hitler, etc. commanded armies. It was a top-down approach. Not all of their soldiers subscribed to the flavor of Nazism, etc. They were soldier taking orders. With religious fanaticism, like Islamic extremists, it's more grass-roots, it's more zealots following an ideology, rather than troops following orders. Which makes it a different type of war when you are fighting an ideology. People need to stop believing in the ideology. That can only be defeated from the inside.

You really ought to try doing some research before posting about historical facts!
Hitler promoted his own religion which he named Positive Christianity that mixed ideas of racial purity and Nazi ideology with elements of Christianity. Except among other changes they rejected Jesus's Semitic origins, rejected the Apostle's Creed and wanted to add a Swastika to the Crucifix.

Positive Christianity separated itself from Nicene Christianity and is considered apostate by all of the historical Trinitarian Christian churches, whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant.

Talking of zealots, 70% of the SS officers joined Positive Christianity.

amogles 29.08.2017 15:39

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2839015)
But that does not change the fact they have the same God?
It is not clear what you mean by the religions evolving?
The Koran has not changed for one and a half millennia; the other religions have also not changed their holy books?

But lots of things happened between Abraham and Mohammed.

No part of the Bible or the Pentateuch or the Koran were written by Abraham or even written in Abraham's time. It is claimed by some that the oldest fragments may have been written by Moses, or at least shortly after, but even that is disputable. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence of post-Mosaic cultural influence and folk legend and fragements of other religions being woven in.

So whatever Abraham may or may not have intended, and whatever his theology was, it would be tenuous to claim that any religious text known today reflects that in its entirety and in an unadultered fashion, or even reflacts it approximately.

Even with theological studies, the older parts of the Bible and especially all of Genesis are treated as metaphoric and are not considered accurate or even semi accurate historical witness.

We thus don't really know very much about Abraham. We don't even know if he was a real historical person or just a legend. If he was real, we don't know what sort of a god he believed in.


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