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amogles 29.08.2017 15:44

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2839047)
Except among other changes they rejected Jesus's Semitic origins,

They weren't alone.

There are many theories in the esoteric corner even today that deny Jesus being Jewish. Go into an esoteric bookshop and you'll have no trouble finding books that claim Jesus was a Hindu or even a Buddhist.

Of course if you actually look inside one you'll find a complete absence of verifiable references and rather tenuous logic. But yeah. It's called free speech.

It's quite easy to see where Hitler got many of his ideas from.

marton 29.08.2017 15:50

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2839055)
But lots of things happened between Abraham and Mohammed.

No part of the Bible or the Pentateuch or the Koran were written by Abraham or even written in Abraham's time. It is claimed by some that the oldest fragments may have been written by Moses, or at least shortly after, but even that is disputable. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence of post-Mosaic cultural influence and folk legend and fragements of other religions being woven in.

So whatever Abraham may or may not have intended, and whatever his theology was, it would be tenuous to claim that any religious text known today reflects that in its entirety and in an unadultered fashion, or even reflacts it approximately.

Even with theological studies, the older parts of the Bible and especially all of Genesis are treated as metaphoric and are not considered accurate or even semi accurate historical witness.

We thus don't really know very much about Abraham. We don't even know if he was a real historical person or just a legend. If he was real, we don't know what sort of a god he believed in.

I assume you do not have a reputable source for your dubious claims? :D

Medea Fleecestealer 29.08.2017 15:59

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Well, of course they evolved. Christianity doesn't believe in the same way that Judaism does (no Jesus as Christ for a start in Judaism) and Islam doesn't believe in the same way that the other two do.

And how do you know that they haven't changed? Do we have original writings from them that definitely prove they are exactly the same as they were thousands of years ago? I don't know much about Judaism and Islam, but the Bible was put together by committee, selections being made from the numerous texts of what would be included as doctrine and what was rejected. Heck they even had to vote on whether Jesus was God or man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

It seems the same can be said for the Hebrew Bible - see this re the Dead Sea Scrolls.

"Owing to the poor condition of some of the scrolls, scholars have not identified all of their texts. The identified texts fall into three general groups:

1. Some 40% are copies of texts from the Hebrew Scriptures.

2. Approximately another 30% are texts from the Second Temple Period which ultimately were not canonized in the Hebrew Bible, like the Book of Enoch, the Book of Jubilees, the Book of Tobit, the Wisdom of Sirach, Psalms 152–155, etc.

3. The remainder (roughly 30%) are sectarian manuscripts of previously unknown documents that shed light on the rules and beliefs of a particular group (sect) or groups within greater Judaism, like the Community Rule, the War Scroll, the Pesher on Habakkuk, and The Rule of the Blessing"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

All religions are based on what men supposedly said/wrote and what men decided to include in their "bibles" or not. God had nothing to do with it. :rolleyes:

Medea Fleecestealer 29.08.2017 16:05

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2839061)
I assume you do not have a reputable source for your dubious claims? :D

"Historicity[edit]

In the early and middle 20th century, leading archaeologists such as William F. Albright, and biblical scholars such as Albrecht Alt, believed that the patriarchs and matriarchs were either real individuals or believable composites of people who lived in the "patriarchal age", the 2nd millennium BCE. But, in the 1970s, new arguments concerning Israel's past and the biblical texts challenged these views; these arguments can be found in Thomas L. Thompson's The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives (1974), and John Van Seters' Abraham in History and Tradition (1975). Thompson, a literary scholar, based his argument on archaeology and ancient texts. His thesis centered on the lack of compelling evidence that the patriarchs lived in the 2nd millennium BCE, and noted how certain biblical texts reflected first millennium conditions and concerns. Van Seters examined the patriarchal stories and argued that their names, social milieu, and messages strongly suggested that they were Iron Age creations.[6] By the beginning of the 21st century, archaeologists had given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible historical figures.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham#Historicity

Pashosh 29.08.2017 16:45

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Of course Abraham existed, we have have the video

couldn't find a single video with Muhammad. that's proof enoguh he didn't exist.

amogles 29.08.2017 16:48

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pashosh (Post 2839104)
couldn't find a single video with Muhammad. that's proof enoguh he didn't exist.

He existed all right.

I went to school with him.

He might have been a different Mohammed mind you, but I don't think so.

There was also an Abraham in our class. But he didn't have a beard.

marton 29.08.2017 16:50

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2839069)
Well, of course they evolved. Christianity doesn't believe in the same way that Judaism does (no Jesus as Christ for a start in Judaism) and Islam doesn't believe in the same way that the other two do.

And how do you know that they haven't changed? Do we have original writings from them that definitely prove they are exactly the same as they were thousands of years ago? I don't know much about Judaism and Islam, but the Bible was put together by committee, selections being made from the numerous texts of what would be included as doctrine and what was rejected. Heck they even had to vote on whether Jesus was God or man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

It seems the same can be said for the Hebrew Bible - see this re the Dead Sea Scrolls.

"Owing to the poor condition of some of the scrolls, scholars have not identified all of their texts. The identified texts fall into three general groups:

1. Some 40% are copies of texts from the Hebrew Scriptures.

2. Approximately another 30% are texts from the Second Temple Period which ultimately were not canonized in the Hebrew Bible, like the Book of Enoch, the Book of Jubilees, the Book of Tobit, the Wisdom of Sirach, Psalms 152–155, etc.

3. The remainder (roughly 30%) are sectarian manuscripts of previously unknown documents that shed light on the rules and beliefs of a particular group (sect) or groups within greater Judaism, like the Community Rule, the War Scroll, the Pesher on Habakkuk, and The Rule of the Blessing"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

All religions are based on what men supposedly said/wrote and what men decided to include in their "bibles" or not. God had nothing to do with it. :rolleyes:

So how does any of this contradict that each of the three religions has the same God.

Each religion claims they were started by the same Abraham and follow his same God.
Whether Abraham existed or not is an interesting discussion but does not alter their beliefs?
All three religions believe they follow the same God.

amogles 29.08.2017 17:00

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2839109)
All three religions believe they follow the same God.

No.

A religion does not believe anything. At best it teaches or codifies.

The followers do the beieving.

And I'm not being intentionally pedantic here. This is an important distinction.

The Bible was written before Mohammed was born. I thus think its safe to assume that nothing in the Bible says that as a Christian you need to believe your God is the same as that of Islam. There is, of course, no statement to the contrary either.

Therefore as a Christian you can believe what you want on this matter. It is no tenet of Christianity to believe one way or the other.

There are references to Christianity and to Jesus in Islam, even if some of these are actually of negative nature, as in, they deny stuff Christians believe. Among others they deny the deity of Jesus. That is not a detail in Christianity but a really important point. So its a problem that is really best reconciled by saying they are not the same God, but just inspired by the same back story. But even if you somehow explain that away, you are still left with a situation where Muslims believe their God is the same as that of Christianity, but the belief is not necessarily reciprocated.

There is a similar situation between Judaism and Christianity.

When you're having an inter-faith meeting and trying to break some ice and establish some common ground, it is of course very nice to be able to say, we all believe in the same God. And sometimes you need these diplomatic lies to get a dialogue going. But just because it's such a useful thing to say, this doesn't make it true.

Medea Fleecestealer 29.08.2017 17:16

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2839109)
So how does any of this contradict that each of the three religions has the same God.

Each religion claims they were started by the same Abraham and follow his same God.
Whether Abraham existed or not is an interesting discussion but does not alter their beliefs?
All three religions believe they follow the same God.

I never said it did. I was pointing out that they have all evolved from what was originally believed since we don't even know for sure what those beliefs were. :rolleyes:

J2488 29.08.2017 17:18

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Link

Letters threatening acid attacks sent to Muslims in Bradford

Quote:

The literature shows an image of a sword and the St George’s flag with the words: “Kill scum Muslims”. It questions why Muslim women wear burqas then states: “We are now going to do acid attacks on anyone who wears the funny black masks around your square & Bradford & other places.”

“Eid could be Friday or Saturday – a lot of times we’ll all be out to families, people go out to restaurants in the town centre. There’s always that chance something could happen.”

marton 29.08.2017 17:19

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2839121)
No.

A religion does not believe anything. At best it teaches or codifies.

The followers do the beieving.

And I'm not being intentionally pedantic here. This is an important distinction.

The Bible was written before Mohammed was born. I thus think its safe to assume that nothing in the Bible says that as a Christian you need to believe your God is the same as that of Islam. There is, of course, no statement to the contrary either.

Therefore as a Christian you can believe what you want on this matter. It is no tenet of Christianity to believe one way or the other.

There are references to Christianity and to Jesus in Islam, even if some of these are actually of negative nature, as in, they deny stuff Christians believe. Among others they deny the deity of Jesus. That is not a detail in Christianity but a really important point. So its a problem that is really best reconciled by saying they are not the same God, but just inspired by the same back story. But even if you somehow explain that away, you are still left with a situation where Muslims believe their God is the same as that of Christianity, but the belief is not necessarily reciprocated.

There is a similar situation between Judaism and Christianity.

When you're having an inter-faith meeting and trying to break some ice and establish some common ground, it is of course very nice to be able to say, we all believe in the same God. And sometimes you need these diplomatic lies to get a dialogue going. But just because it's such a useful thing to say, this doesn't make it true.

"Therefore as a Christian you can believe what you want on this matter. " As a Christian you are supposed to believe what is written in the Bible, in this case the Abrahamic Covenant.
If as a Christian you do not believe your God is the same as that of Islam it does not change the fact that they are the same.

If as a Christian you believe chem trails are dangerous it does not make them dangerous?

marton 29.08.2017 17:22

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2839146)
I never said it did. I was pointing out that they have all evolved from what was originally believed since we don't even know for sure what those beliefs were. :rolleyes:

You should read up on the Abrahamic Covenant :)

Urs Max 29.08.2017 17:24

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
It may be quite moot whether all three religions accept that their god is the same:
They may still say the other religions' way of worship are wrong. Effectively the same as Christians vs Evangelists vs Reformierte used to.

amogles 29.08.2017 17:31

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2839151)
"Therefore as a Christian you can believe what you want on this matter. " As a Christian you are supposed to believe what is written in the Bible, in this case the Abrahamic Covenant.
If as a Christian you do not believe your God is the same as that of Islam it does not change the fact that they are the same.

You do realize that there are many differences between the Biblical and Islamic accounts of Abraham. In the Christian and Judaic version it was his son Isaac he wanted to sacrifice. In the Islamic version it was his son Ismael. This is an important difference as Isaac was the father of the Jewish people, and by denying his special place this also weakens the cliam of the Jews to be a chosen people. There are also many other differences in the accounts of Abraham's life and family. many of them just incidental and not of great importance, but still sufficient to suggest a garbling in transmission somewhere along the way.

Maybe you could say it's not actually the same story but at best a similar one.

Medea Fleecestealer 29.08.2017 17:35

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2839153)
You should read up on the Abrahamic Covenant :)

What for? Someone who it seems didn't exist supposedly talked to someone or something that also doesn't exist. Yes, I like fiction, but prefer sci-fi and fantasy for my reading material. Though I guess you could say this all comes under the fantasy label - cause it sure ain't fact. :p

esto 29.08.2017 17:41

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2838604)
You do not know much about the Nazis do you? Their long term aim was to eradicate Christianity in the areas they controlled, Martin Bormann, Joseph Goebbels, Alfred Rosenberg, Heinrich Himmler led this strategy. See the Donovan documents for details.
70% of the SS officers withdrew from their Christian denominations.
18% of Polish Catholic priests were murdered by the Nazis, 2,600 Catholic priests murdered in Dachau.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2839047)
You really ought to try doing some research before posting about historical facts!
Hitler promoted his own religion which he named Positive Christianity that mixed ideas of racial purity and Nazi ideology with elements of Christianity.
Talking of zealots, 70% of the SS officers joined Positive Christianity.

LOL, are you just arguing with yourself now...?

Marton: "Nazis wanted to eliminate Christianity"
Marton: "No, Nazis were promoting Christianity"
Marton: "You don't know what you are talking about"

...I'll leave you to continue your discussion alone...

marton 29.08.2017 18:11

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by esto (Post 2839164)
LOL, are you just arguing with yourself now...?

Marton: "Nazis wanted to eliminate Christianity"
Marton: "No, Nazis were promoting Christianity"
Marton: "You don't know what you are talking about"

...I'll leave you to continue your discussion alone...

To recap.
Nazis wanted to eliminate existing Christianity in Germany and replace it with something they labelled as Positive Christianity, this new "religion" was regarded as apostate by the existing Christian religions.
As part of this strategy the Nazi's arrested and murdered many priests.

70% of SS officers withdrew from their Christian denominations and joined the Nazi version of Christianity.

esto 29.08.2017 18:34

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
...and your point is...?

marton 29.08.2017 18:54

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2839160)
You do realize that there are many differences between the Biblical and Islamic accounts of Abraham. In the Christian and Judaic version it was his son Isaac he wanted to sacrifice. In the Islamic version it was his son Ismael. This is an important difference as Isaac was the father of the Jewish people, and by denying his special place this also weakens the cliam of the Jews to be a chosen people. There are also many other differences in the accounts of Abraham's life and family. many of them just incidental and not of great importance, but still sufficient to suggest a garbling in transmission somewhere along the way.

Maybe you could say it's not actually the same story but at best a similar one.

It is part of the human condition that there are different versions of major events; from the Kennedy assassination to the size of the crowd at Trump's inauguration.
As I am sure you know there are many more than three Abrahamic religions and more than two versions of the Abraham account.
But so what?
Or are you implying that every time there is a different version there is a different God involved?

marton 29.08.2017 19:01

Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2839146)
I never said it did. I was pointing out that they have all evolved from what was originally believed since we don't even know for sure what those beliefs were. :rolleyes:

Thinking more about it I am not sure that evolving is a good description? Christianity did not replace Judaism and Islam did not replace Christianity.

It is more like a tree with new branches sprouting from the same stem, then the old branches are either unchanged or are weakened or grow with new strength.


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