Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1201  
Old 31.08.2017, 11:07
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,862
Groaned at 229 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 22,681 Times in 9,623 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
That is not the point.
The point is "Does Islam provide a valid justification to kill random people (random in the sense that terrorists do not select specific people to kill but just whoever happens to be standing near a bomb or in front of a truck, etc.)"

The answer is no but there are "religious scholars" here who argue otherwise.
And because you did RE at school you know more about Islam than religious scholars?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #1202  
Old 31.08.2017, 11:23
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
Now the truth and hopefully a fulsome apology from the Daily Mail
I hate to give credit to the Mail, but I know from personal experience that some social workers are motivated by a political box-ticking agenda and simply will not listen to reason.

Among others, I used to work with a young Kosovar, 15 years old, unaccompanied minor. This was way back in the early years of the "asylum crisis" and the social services really had no clue what to do with kids found alone in shipping containers without their families. After lodging him with a bunch of Kurdish men, they eventually announced that he'd go to stay with a foster family. We all celebrated, as the kid desperately needed some stability and maybe even someone to occasionally have a conversation with.

The family were an extremely strict Bangladeshi Muslim family. The Kosovar hated it, started coming to school on the edge of tears.

I called the SS and asked if some change could be made, to be told that "we have taken the boy's cultural background into consideration and it is vital that he stays with this family."

I objected, given that this kid was from Kosovo, was thoroughly secular in every way despite having been named after a famous Turkish sultan, quite liked a bacon cob when he could get one and - most importantly - was utterly miserable staying with this family with their unutterably alien culture.

No. He was a Muslim and that was that.

He didn't stay there very long, and hated every day he stayed, but the boxes were ticked and that was that.

So yeah, it happens.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #1203  
Old 31.08.2017, 11:26
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,862
Groaned at 229 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 22,681 Times in 9,623 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:

I called the SS and asked if ......
You had me freaked out there. Never thought you were that old , or of that inclination.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #1204  
Old 31.08.2017, 11:34
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,862
Groaned at 229 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 22,681 Times in 9,623 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
I hate to give credit to the Mail, but I know from personal experience that some social workers are motivated by a political box-ticking agenda and simply will not listen to reason.

Among others, I used to work with a young Kosovar, 15 years old, unaccompanied minor. This was way back in the early years of the "asylum crisis" and the social services really had no clue what to do with kids found alone in shipping containers without their families. After lodging him with a bunch of Kurdish men, they eventually announced that he'd go to stay with a foster family. We all celebrated, as the kid desperately needed some stability and maybe even someone to occasionally have a conversation with.

The family were an extremely strict Bangladeshi Muslim family. The Kosovar hated it, started coming to school on the edge of tears.

I called the SS and asked if some change could be made, to be told that "we have taken the boy's cultural background into consideration and it is vital that he stays with this family."

I objected, given that this kid was from Kosovo, was thoroughly secular in every way despite having been named after a famous Turkish sultan, quite liked a bacon cob when he could get one and - most importantly - was utterly miserable staying with this family with their unutterably alien culture.

No. He was a Muslim and that was that.

He didn't stay there very long, and hated every day he stayed, but the boxes were ticked and that was that.

So yeah, it happens.
Very much agree.

I know a lawyer who used to work on cases of foster care. He defended parents who were trying to get their children back. He said many of the foster families are only in it for the cash and in many cases only made things worse. He also said social services were hopeless. Often they didn't take minutes at important meetings and it was difficult to verify afterwards who had said what or precisely what had been decided. Decisions were often based on gut feeling and stereotypes and facts were not duly checked. Inconvenient facts were ignored rather than taken into account. People passed the buck all the time and very few people had the balls to stand up and accept the responsibility for bad decisions.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #1205  
Old 31.08.2017, 11:39
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
Very much agree.

I know a lawyer who used to work on cases of foster care. He defended parents who were trying to get their children back. He said many of the foster families are only in it for the cash and in many cases only made things worse. He also said social services were hopeless. Often they didn't take minutes at important meetings and it was difficult to verify afterwards who had said what or precisely what had been decided. Decisions were often based on gut feeling and stereotypes and facts were not duly checked. Inconvenient facts were ignored rather than taken into account. People passed the buck all the time and very few people had the balls to stand up and accept the responsibility for bad decisions.
It was horrible. The stories I could tell!

They don't have an easy job, to be fair, and some of them are utterly brilliant, hardworking professionals with brains and hearts.

But quite a lot of them - too many of them - are not.

The story in the Mail seems entirely plausible. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say likely.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #1206  
Old 31.08.2017, 11:40
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,748
Groaned at 430 Times in 371 Posts
Thanked 17,824 Times in 9,516 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
And because you did RE at school you know more about Islam than "religious scholars"?
ftfy

Well more than the "religious scholars" whose interpretation of Islam turns their students into criminals facing the death penalty under Sharia Law
Reply With Quote
  #1207  
Old 31.08.2017, 11:57
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Why on earth did the Daily Mail choose a stock photo from Getty images, of a family in Taipei by the looks of the tower behind them, and then blur out the womans face? Its clearly not the family in question, nor is the photo even relevant to the article.


Oh, thats right, its readers are morons who are too gullible to see that the photo is entirely unrelated and only intended to show those muzzies as burka-wearing fanatics.


As you were.
Reply With Quote
  #1208  
Old 31.08.2017, 12:08
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
Why on earth did the Daily Mail choose a stock photo from Getty images, of a family in Taipei by the looks of the tower behind them, and then blur out the womans face? Its clearly not the family in question, nor is the photo even relevant to the article.


Oh, thats right, its readers are morons who are too gullible to see that the photo is entirely unrelated and only intended to show those muzzies as burka-wearing fanatics.


As you were.
The story seems to have moved on with new developments:

Quote:
A row over a five-year-old Christian child sent to live with Muslim foster carers took an extraordinary twist last night when it emerged the girl’s grandparents are Muslims.
Seems they don't have a clue which team they bat for.

Quote:
The girl's mother said her family had a Christian heritage but the judge said there was evidence that the mother's parents had a Muslim background.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-Muslims.html

Poor kid.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #1209  
Old 31.08.2017, 12:09
Castro's Avatar
à la mod
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ZG
Posts: 5,422
Groaned at 113 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 16,145 Times in 5,147 Posts
Castro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
Why on earth did the Daily Mail choose a stock photo from Getty images, of a family in Taipei by the looks of the tower behind them, and then blur out the womans face? Its clearly not the family in question, nor is the photo even relevant to the article.


Oh, thats right, its readers are morons who are too gullible to see that the photo is entirely unrelated and only intended to show those muzzies as burka-wearing fanatics.


As you were.
Thats nothing compared to how it was reported on Breitbart.

It should go without saying that the media's role is to inform and not to skillfully manipulate the news to incite religious and/or religious hatred. If we've learnt anything from 1930s Germany, its that when you start to caricature and demonise an entire population the results are invariably not good.
Attached Thumbnails
all-about-muslims-wake-terrorist-attacks-europe-breit.jpg  
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Castro for this useful post:
  #1210  
Old 31.08.2017, 12:15
Castro's Avatar
à la mod
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ZG
Posts: 5,422
Groaned at 113 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 16,145 Times in 5,147 Posts
Castro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
It was horrible. The stories I could tell!

They don't have an easy job, to be fair, and some of them are utterly brilliant, hardworking professionals with brains and hearts.

But quite a lot of them - too many of them - are not.

The story in the Mail seems entirely plausible. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say likely.
The flipside is that there's a shortage of Muslim and ethnic foster families and stories like this are not exactly going to inspire them to sign up... why would they??
Reply With Quote
  #1211  
Old 31.08.2017, 13:23
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,862
Groaned at 229 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 22,681 Times in 9,623 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
The flipside is that there's a shortage of Muslim and ethnic foster families and stories like this are not exactly going to inspire them to sign up... why would they??
I very much hope that there are sufficient numbers of well meaning people out there in all walks of life and of all creeds and persuasions who will not be swayed by the negativity, and do what is right.

That said, I am happy the story did come out like this. If it had been suppressed and then come out later it would have been oil on the fires of conspiracy theorists, and there would have been a far nastier reaction.

I guess this is the difference between the way British and German media handle such stories.
Reply With Quote
  #1212  
Old 31.08.2017, 13:38
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Formerly in Neuchatel
Posts: 2,964
Groaned at 231 Times in 158 Posts
Thanked 5,592 Times in 2,081 Posts
porsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
I very much hope that there are sufficient numbers of well meaning people out there in all walks of life and of all creeds and persuasions who will not be swayed by the negativity, and do what is right.

That said, I am happy the story did come out like this. If it had been suppressed and then come out later it would have been oil on the fires of conspiracy theorists, and there would have been a far nastier reaction.

I guess this is the difference between the way British and German media handle such stories.
To me it was a non-story. The judge has even said he had no concerns about how the child was taken care off. I mean the main points of contention were:

- Child wasn't allowed their favourite pasta cause it had bacon in it. Hardly newsworthy. Perhaps if the mother was so concerned she wouldn't be an alocholic drug taker who sells her body?
- The family spoke English but apparently spoke a different language around the child. I guess the child would be better off around the mother while she was snorting lines off a client's dick?
- The family forced the child to learn this other language. So what? I was forced to learn French at school and hated it. Can I get a story in the times?

Foster care is NEVER the ideal scenario. The ideal scenario is to have a loving and caring family and to always be safe. I'm confident the child was in a far better environment with these Muslims....with or without carbonara
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank porsch1909 for this useful post:
  #1213  
Old 31.08.2017, 13:59
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 3,889
Groaned at 105 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 10,610 Times in 4,679 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
And because you did RE at school you know more about Islam than religious scholars?
Bearing in mind that religious education is largely forbidden in schools in the US, I'd say that I have a slightly better grasp of different faiths than the average person, who may only know about faiths from the media, in that I don't have to search Google for a lot of the basic stuff, such as the divisive aspects of a belief in transmogrification. I can walk into a place like Hagia Sophia and recognise the contrasting cultural and religious symbolism that belies the history of the place.

I firmly believe that if you want your kid to be an agnostic or atheist, the best route is to send them to a R.C. High School. Our R.E. classes stripped away the mystique of the different faiths. Out of all the people I know who went to R.C. schools, I can count on one hand how many still have a faith, and none have changed faith or joined religious based cults. It's the best immunisation you can get

Right...I'm going back to reading about the blonde Caliphates of Cordoba, the Umayyad conquest, and Islamic troops first landing in Spain in 711 A.D. Interesting stuff......
Reply With Quote
  #1214  
Old 31.08.2017, 15:29
Rob's Avatar
Rob Rob is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Baden AG
Posts: 464
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 1,337 Times in 520 Posts
Rob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
Why on earth did the Daily Mail choose a stock photo from Getty images, of a family in Taipei by the looks of the tower behind them, and then blur out the womans face? Its clearly not the family in question, nor is the photo even relevant to the article.


Oh, thats right, its readers are morons who are too gullible to see that the photo is entirely unrelated and only intended to show those muzzies as burka-wearing fanatics.


As you were.
In fact that photo was from the Times article that broke the story. The Mail lifted the article and took what looks like the same picture as the Times but photoshopped a full face veil onto the woman.
Reply With Quote
  #1215  
Old 31.08.2017, 19:15
esto's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: CHE
Posts: 1,373
Groaned at 77 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 3,225 Times in 1,406 Posts
esto has a reputation beyond reputeesto has a reputation beyond reputeesto has a reputation beyond reputeesto has a reputation beyond reputeesto has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
"the solution needs to come from within the religion itself." I am not sure what is your expectation, it would be nice to know.
The overwhelming majority interpret it as a peaceful, non violent religion. The tiny minority who do not and perform terror acts are criminals under Sharia law and face both the death penalty and eternity in Hell.

What more do you expect?
Islamic Terrorism can't be defeated from the outside, eg. military, police, etc...only contained...because it is an ideology that's based on Islam. There is a huge recruiting base, and no lack of recruits. Globally. Why are so many people willing to kill/die for Islam?

I would guess because in many parts of the world, they live the religion, it's deeply ingrained, praying 5x daily, eating only certain foods and fasting, ... when people are so obedient to their belief, they are easier to be manipulated by Imams who have certain agendas (ie: radical Islamists).

I would be interested to hear other people's opinions.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank esto for this useful post:
  #1216  
Old 31.08.2017, 19:31
parnell's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Geroldswil
Posts: 513
Groaned at 186 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 1,767 Times in 872 Posts
parnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Mine keep getting modded of late
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank parnell for this useful post:
  #1217  
Old 31.08.2017, 19:37
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,862
Groaned at 229 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 22,681 Times in 9,623 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
Islamic Terrorism can't be defeated from the outside, eg. military, police, etc...only contained...because it is an ideology that's based on Islam. There is a huge recruiting base, and no lack of recruits. Globally. Why are so many people willing to kill/die for Islam?

I would guess because in many parts of the world, they live the religion, it's deeply ingrained, praying 5x daily, eating only certain foods and fasting, ... when people are so obedient to their belief, they are easier to be manipulated by Imams who have certain agendas (ie: radical Islamists).

I would be interested to hear other people's opinions.
I think that is definitely part of it, but not the full story, beacause as others have said, there have also been peaceful periods in Islamic History.

I think it also has much to do with tensions between the Islamic World and the West. Islamic traditionalists see a massive imperialist drive by Western nations to establish puppet governments in their countries and to introduce Western values and culture by stealth.

When people say, there have been more Muslim victims of Islamic terrorism than Western ones, what they miss is that in the eyes of the extremists, the partly secularized governments of their countries and the non radicalized people on the street and all around them are part of the Western cancer that is threatening and eroding their version of Islam. They are thus not killing Muslims for the sake of killing muslims but killing the Muslims who are too westernized.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #1218  
Old 31.08.2017, 19:42
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,748
Groaned at 430 Times in 371 Posts
Thanked 17,824 Times in 9,516 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
I think that is definitely part of it, but not the full story, beacause as others have said, there have also been peaceful periods in Islamic History.

I think it also has much to do with tensions between the Islamic World and the West. Islamic traditionalists see a massive imperialist drive by Western nations to establish puppet governments in their countries and to introduce Western values and culture by stealth.

When people say, there have been more Muslim victims of Islamic terrorism than Western ones, what they miss is that in the eyes of the extremists, the partly secularized governments of their countries and the non radicalized people on the street and all around them are part of the Western cancer that is threatening their version of Islam. They are thus not killing Muslims for the sake of killing muslims but killing the Muslims who are too westernized.
So when the terrorists set off a bomb they have some mystic means (hand of God?) to murder only the Muslims who are too westernized and too ensure any passing deeply religious and traditional Muslims are spared

Edit - you mean like in June when Tehran was targeted by suicide bombers and teams of gunmen when they stormed Iran's parliament and the nearby shrine of Ruhollah Khomeini or in February when a suicide bomber entered the main hall of the Shrine of Lal Shahbaz Qalandar in Sehwan, Pakistan and detonated his payload amid dozens of worshippers.
Reply With Quote
  #1219  
Old 31.08.2017, 19:52
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
View Post
So when the terrorists set off a bomb they have some mystic means (hand of God?) to murder only the Muslims who are too westernized and too ensure any passing deeply religious and traditional Muslims are spared

Edit - you mean like in June when Tehran was targeted by suicide bombers and teams of gunmen when they stormed Iran's parliament and the nearby shrine of Ruhollah Khomeini or in February when a suicide bomber entered the main hall of the Shrine of Lal Shahbaz Qalandar in Sehwan, Pakistan and detonated his payload amid dozens of worshippers.
Shia Muslims are as bad as "imperialist lapdog" Muslims in the eyes of ISIS and their fellow travellers.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #1220  
Old 31.08.2017, 20:40
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,748
Groaned at 430 Times in 371 Posts
Thanked 17,824 Times in 9,516 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Quote:
Shia Muslims are as bad as "imperialist lapdog" Muslims in the eyes of ISIS and their fellow travellers.
Sure, so we agree they are not Westernised, secular Muslims but "genuine" Muslims but from a different sect?
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Will borders with CH be affected after terrorist attacks? McTAVGE Daily life 19 15.11.2015 18:14
The All Muslims are evil thread bigblue2 General off-topic 4 27.08.2010 15:46
Confused about coverage in rest of Europe on Swiss Health Insurance Wingnut Insurance 8 15.12.2008 09:20


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0