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  #1301  
Old 12.09.2017, 17:31
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I'm an atheist but would never be so arrogant to denounce an ENTIRE belief system as being responsible for the ills of many of its followers.
It is true for Communism.
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Old 12.09.2017, 18:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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It is true for Communism.
Except it's not a belief system.
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Old 12.09.2017, 18:42
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Except it's not a belief system.
Perhaps not in the religious sense as this thread is about, but people believe in communism in the same way that they believe in democracy. They want to live under those particular sets of rules - which sounds pretty much like any religion of the world I know of. If you didn't you wouldn't be a Christian, a Muslim, a Bhuddist, a Communist, a Socialist, etc.
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  #1304  
Old 14.09.2017, 22:12
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Perhaps not in the religious sense as this thread is about, but people believe in communism in the same way that they believe in democracy. They want to live under those particular sets of rules - which sounds pretty much like any religion of the world I know of. If you didn't you wouldn't be a Christian, a Muslim, a Bhuddist, a Communist, a Socialist, etc.
Interesting to think about that. How religion and state laws intersect. "Western" society is now secular, but most of the laws and society is coming from a distinctly Christian background. Islamic lands are more deeply rooted in Islamic Law / Sharia Law. How compatible are Western countries laws with Sharia Law? And how comfortable are Muslims who live in EU, knowing that Sharia Law is not the law of the land here? (Any Muslims on here, I would be interested to hear your thoughts)
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Old 14.09.2017, 22:27
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Interesting to think about that. How religion and state laws intersect. "Western" society is now secular, but most of the laws and society is coming from a distinctly Christian background. Islamic lands are more deeply rooted in Islamic Law / Sharia Law. How compatible are Western countries laws with Sharia Law? And how comfortable are Muslims who live in EU, knowing that Sharia Law is not the law of the land here? (Any Muslims on here, I would be interested to hear your thoughts)
"knowing that Sharia Law is not the law of the land here?" But it is not the law of the land in most Muslim majority countries either? Source

BTW, there are reported to be around 85 "shariah courts" in the UK!
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Old 14.09.2017, 23:09
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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"knowing that Sharia Law is not the law of the land here?" But it is not the law of the land in most Muslim majority countries either? Source
Yes, thanks, that's pretty much what I said, that Western countries laws are coming from Christian-based background, while Muslim countries coming from Sharia Law
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Most Muslim-majority countries adopt various aspects of sharia. According to BBC, some countries adopt only a few aspects of Sharia, others apply the entire code.[2]

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BTW, there are reported to be around 85 "shariah courts" in the UK!
Where's the link for that? And how can laws other than UK laws be recognized/enforced? I mean the Sharia "eye for an eye" rule can't legally be applied in the UK, if it means murdering/raping/attacking someone in turn?
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Old 14.09.2017, 23:53
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Yes, thanks, that's pretty much what I said, that Western countries laws are coming from Christian-based background, while Muslim countries coming from Sharia Law

Where's the link for that? And how can laws other than UK laws be recognized/enforced? I mean the Sharia "eye for an eye" rule can't legally be applied in the UK, if it means murdering/raping/attacking someone in turn?
"Where's the link for that? " It is all in the same link that I posted.
You have to go down to the section labelled United Kingdom.

"while Muslim countries coming from Sharia Law" To quote from my link "Since the early Islamic states of the eighth and ninth centuries, sharia always existed alongside other normative systems."
Existed alongside does not mean it is "the law of the land" as you stated nor does it mean the the law of the land is based on Sharia.
Mostly Sharia is only applied in family matters not in criminal law.

See mixed systems below;
Classical sharia systems
Classical sharia systems are those where sharia plays a dominant role and is present in most areas of a nation's legal system. Iran, Saudi Arabia and Sudan are examples of classical sharia systems.

Secular systems
Secular systems are those where sharia plays no role in the nation's legal system. Turkey is an example of a Muslim-majority nation with a secular system.

Mixed systems
Mixed systems are those where sharia is not dominant, but plays a significant role in one or more areas of the nation's legal system. This is observed in majority of Muslim nations.


"the Sharia "eye for an eye" rule can't legally be applied in the UK" Also to quote from my link "most Muslim countries do not use traditional classical Islamic punishments" so why would you believe the UK does
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  #1308  
Old 15.09.2017, 08:21
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

There are no "courts" in the UK or in the rest of the Atlantic World (nice term eh).

http://presstv.ir/Detail/2017/04/24/...a-courts-in-UK

It finishes with saying:

“The simple fact is that there are no Sharia Courts in the UK or in the wider Atlantic World. This contrived storm-in a-teacup over Islamic councils is clearly part of the wider anti-Muslim, geopolitical agenda and, at its worst, presumes to invest in secular Western governments the coercive power to redefine Islam itself when, in fact, any individual who feels burdened by the determination of a Sharia Council, is free to simply ignore it,” the commentator concluded."

However, as he should know simply ignoring a ruling by such councils, be they Muslim or Jewish, just isn't possible in those faiths as this case shows:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/r...a-courts-in-uk
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Old 15.09.2017, 09:11
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Yes, thanks, that's pretty much what I said, that Western countries laws are coming from Christian-based background, while Muslim countries coming from Sharia Law
I don't think that's true. Local law is based on Roman law, I guess the same applies to most western European countries except those that base on British law which is also not based on Christianity.

Of course Christianity had significant influence over the centuries but that's something different.
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Yes, thanks, that's pretty much what I said, that Western countries laws are coming from Christian-based background, while Muslim countries coming from Sharia Law
In civil matters you're usually (perhaps in all cases) free to drag the other before a court or not, if you don't there's no ruling according to local law. So if all involved agree you're free to rely on any and any kind of arbiter all involved agree upon.

If you had a dispute with your neighbor, and if both agreed, you could ask marton to be the arbiter. Still you'd both be free to ignore his ruling because it has no legal standing. Same applies to application of Sharia law. I highly doubt the UK differs in the slightest to CH law in that respect.

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Old 15.09.2017, 09:33
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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There are no "courts" in the UK or in the rest of the Atlantic World (nice term eh).

http://presstv.ir/Detail/2017/04/24/...a-courts-in-UK

It finishes with saying:

“The simple fact is that there are no Sharia Courts in the UK or in the wider Atlantic World. This contrived storm-in a-teacup over Islamic councils is clearly part of the wider anti-Muslim, geopolitical agenda and, at its worst, presumes to invest in secular Western governments the coercive power to redefine Islam itself when, in fact, any individual who feels burdened by the determination of a Sharia Council, is free to simply ignore it,” the commentator concluded."

However, as he should know simply ignoring a ruling by such councils, be they Muslim or Jewish, just isn't possible in those faiths as this case shows:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/r...a-courts-in-uk
In reality the pressure on community members is huge and that honour thing doesn't allow people to simply ignore the burden of such courts, once they have been through. It's probably more like in this case.
I can't for the life of me understand how would anyone agree with these things, even if they live in a country that has a better system.
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One woman’s brush with Sharia courts in the UK: "It ruined my life forever"
MARYAM NAMAZIE and RAHILA GUPTA 7 November 2016
“My daughter and I appeared before the Sharia court at Regent's Park mosque in London. They were not interested in anything we had to say, the whole process was shocking.”
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The UK government is conducting an inquiry into the operation of Sharia courts which is being boycotted by a number of women’s organisations because its remit is too narrow, and the panel of judges is not seen as ‘independent’ enough.

Parallel to this, the Home Affairs Committee has also launched an inquiry into whether the principles of Sharia are compatible with British law.

On 7 November, there will be a public seminar on "Sharia Law, Legal Pluralism and Access to Justice" 7-9pm at Committee Room 12 at the Houses of Parliament. Below, we publish the story of a woman Shagufta (not her real name) who spoke to the campaign group, One Law for All, and described how a brush with the Sharia courts ruined her life forever.

I am a practising Muslim. My faith is central to who I am. I was born in 1947 in Pakistan and joined my husband in the UK in 1965. I am from a middle-class Pakistani family and found life in England hard. It was a huge culture shock. We settled in the north of England. I supported my husband with his business interests and eventually had my own business running a cookery school and a halal food company. I had six daughters and a son.

After my husband died in 1987 I moved to London with my children. My older daughter, Lubna (not her real name) moved to London in 1994 after the breakdown in her marriage. After the British courts granted her a civil divorce, I hoped that would be the end of our involvement with my ex-son-in-law. Sadly this was not to be the case. He visited our local mosque and denounced me to the gathering, saying that I was ‘a loose woman’ who was pimping her daughters. He asked the mosque elders to help him get his children and his wife back to save their morals. A delegation from the mosque visited my home to convince me that the best thing would be to make my daughter return to her husband. I told them she was divorced but they said the English divorce meant nothing and was not valid in Islam. I was so angry at the vile allegations of these men.

Another Imam, a close family friend of ours, told us that Lubna would have to seek a khula (divorce) from a Sharia court. I vehemently disagreed and cited the cases of several Muslim women I had known who had been divorced in the English courts without any need for a religious divorce. These women had since remarried too. The imam said the mosques had failed in their duty and that these women would go to hell as they were committing zina (adultery) and producing haram children. I reluctantly agreed to speak to Lubna.

We appeared before the Sharia court. The whole process in the Sharia court at Regents Park mosque was shocking. Lubna was dismissed every time she spoke; I was treated very disrespectfully every time I tried to intervene. They were not interested in anything we had to say, not even the real risks that my ex-son-in-law posed to his children let alone to my daughter. He had beaten my grandson a few years earlier and split his head open. He still has scars on his face.

None of the information from the civil proceedings (affidavit, non-molestation orders etc) was admissible in the Sharia Court. When Lubna’s ex-husband stated that he did not want to grant khula but wanted a reconciliation ‘for the sake of the children’, the Judges agreed. I was horrified. As my daughter and I were protesting so much, a further hearing date was set. At the next hearing, Lubna was told to reconcile and that a khula would not be granted. We were also told that my ex-son-in-law had custodial rights over my grandchildren and that they would remain with Lubna as long as my ex-son-in-law agreed. I do not have words to convey my anger at what was being done in this supposed court. I left the Sharia Court determined to find a way to protect my daughter and her children.

After the hearing, Lubna lived with a sustained campaign of harassment and abuse from my ex-son-in-law. During this time he kidnapped my grandchildren and threatened to keep them if Lubna did not allow him to come and live with her. He threatened to kill me and my other children if she involved the police. It was only with the help of her father-in-law that the children were returned to her.

What happened next, I cannot even bring myself to say the words so I will quote from Lubna’s statement, ‘Several weeks after the children were returned to me, my ex-husband began calling at all hours of the day and night (he had my address and contact details from the Sharia Court papers). I refused to let him in. I contacted the police and applied for a new non-molestation order. However, the harassment did not stop. Very late one night my ex-husband broke in and violently raped me. I did not report this to the police as I was too scared. After the rape he wrote to my mother and the Imam and told them I had slept with him and that we were now together again. My mother came to my house as soon as she received the letter and was shocked to see the injuries resulting from the violence I suffered that night.’

It breaks my heart – all that she had to go through.

My family in Pakistan were horrified to hear that there were Sharia courts in England. My family sent written advice from several scholars in Pakistan and India which confirmed that there was absolutely no need for a khula as the civil divorce was recognised as a formal termination of the marriage; if Lubna were to remarry in Pakistan then a copy of the divorce from the English courts would be sufficient.

However, with regard to my grandchildren, the letters did confirm that Lubna only had guardianship of the children under Sharia principles but as she had custody of the children under English civil law, they advised that the ruling of the English courts should be accepted as they had based their decision on the best interests of the children.

I sent copies of the letters to my ex-son-in-law and his father. His father gave his word that this would be an end to the matter. He had never thought a Sharia divorce certificate was necessary. I do not understand where these Sharia courts have come from. I come from the generation of immigrants to this country that was able to be part of British society and to be Muslim without the need for separate legal systems. After the Sharia court proceedings ended I supposed that my life would continue as it had done before. Nothing could have prepared me for what lay ahead.

The ostracism began with people who had once been friends starting to avoid me. I asked my friend Guljabeen if she knew what was going on. Guljabeen told me that the incident at the mosque (where I was accused of pimping my daughters) had become common knowledge in the area where we lived. My children were no longer welcome in the homes of their Muslim friends. I used to sing the naats and nasheeds at prayer gatherings and was well known for doing this. All invitations to do this ceased.

Three of my other daughters have married non-Muslims and left Islam. I have suffered almost total ostracism for supporting them in their choices. My closest friend from childhood, who lives in the area, has stopped visiting me. My only wish has been for my daughters to be safe and happy. I taught them about their faith – how to pray, fast, be good and decent human beings – I did my duty as a mother. As for their choices in regard to their own religious practice – they are adults and must make their own choices about what is right and wrong. Only Allah can judge us in the end.

In the end, I decided not to leave the area where we live and start all over again. Why should I? I am old now and tired of all of this. I wanted to share these experiences with you so that you can begin to understand how the community judges control women like me. I knew as a widow without a male to protect me I was an easy target. Even in London a big city with millions of people it is very hard to move away from this control.

My time is coming to an end, but I am so sad for the generations to come if we continue on the path of this new Islam.

This case study is one of many testimonies gathered by women’s rights organisations, namely British Muslims for Secular Democracy, Centre for Secular Space, Iranian Kurdish Women’s Rights Organisation, One Law for All and Southall Black Sisters.
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  #1311  
Old 15.09.2017, 10:15
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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In reality the pressure on community members is huge and that honour thing doesn't allow people to simply ignore the burden of such courts, once they have been through. It's probably more like in this case.
I can't for the life of me understand how would anyone agree with these things, even if they live in a country that has a better system.
Reading that, though, it seems that the UK system let this family down. Clearly the ex husband's behaviour wouldn't have changed regardless of whether he'd got his way via the Sharia court or whatever.

It seems to be a very modern disease that we attempt to blame all the ills in these situations on a religion and culture rather than just some shitbag husband with query mental health issues.

Humans will never take responsibility for their own appalling behaviour if they are constantly handed a bunch of preconceptions and airy-fairy reasons to hide behind, not to mention the ability to just make up the rules as they go along.
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Old 15.09.2017, 11:20
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Reading that, though, it seems that the UK system let this family down. Clearly the ex husband's behaviour wouldn't have changed regardless of whether he'd got his way via the Sharia court or whatever.

It seems to be a very modern disease that we attempt to blame all the ills in these situations on a religion and culture rather than just some shitbag husband with query mental health issues.

Humans will never take responsibility for their own appalling behaviour if they are constantly handed a bunch of preconceptions and airy-fairy reasons to hide behind, not to mention the ability to just make up the rules as they go along.
No, it is a classic case of why a parallel justice court is not a good idea to begin with. I think the women involved clearly preferred the (imperfect) British system. It was the Sharia and the community thing that failed them.

However, what happens in UK in this regard is none of other people's business, but if the idea of parallel justice system is to be propagated in other places then I think each country should decide for itself.
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Old 15.09.2017, 11:33
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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In reality the pressure on community members is huge and that honour thing doesn't allow people to simply ignore the burden of such courts, once they have been through. It's probably more like in this case.
I can't for the life of me understand how would anyone agree with these things, even if they live in a country that has a better system.
I agree.
In this case I believe the ladies relationship with her neighbours probably is also complicated by the fact that three daughters married non Muslims. Of course the daughters should be free to marry whoever they want to but some community members would likely see this as a reason to break or reduce a relationship.
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Old 15.09.2017, 11:38
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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If you had a dispute with your neighbor, and if both agreed, you could ask marton to be the arbiter. Still you'd both be free to ignore his ruling because it has no legal standing. Same applies to application of Sharia law. I highly doubt the UK differs in the slightest to CH law in that respect.
This is true in principle.

But if you are part of a closely knit community and don't accept the rulings of the elders of that community, the consequence can be that you are excluded from and shunned by that community.

Maybe if you are in a stamp collector's club and you disagree with the chairman and he kicks you out for not accepting his rulings, you can shrug your shoulders and ask Google if there's another stamp collecting club in the area. But many Muslkim communities have been closely knit for generations and if you reject their rulings, that can be quite dire.
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Old 15.09.2017, 11:40
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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No, it is a classic case of why a parallel justice court is not a good idea to begin with. I think the women involved clearly preferred the (imperfect) British system. It was the Sharia and the community thing that failed them.

However, what happens in UK in this regard is none of other people's business, but if the idea of parallel justice system is to be propagated in other places then I think each country should decide for itself.
Who they marry is their own business and they can apply Sharia tenets (or Jedi or the teachings of Scientology for that matter) if they so wish BUT kidnapping grandchildren and threats to kill other members of the family comes under UK law. A parallel justice system is irrelevant.
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Old 15.09.2017, 15:09
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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This is true in principle.

But if you are part of a closely knit community and don't accept the rulings of the elders of that community, the consequence can be that you are excluded from and shunned by that community.
Certainly. But what else can you do?
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Old 15.09.2017, 15:21
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...-about-sharia/

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Old 15.09.2017, 15:25
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Reading that, though, it seems that the UK system let this family down. Clearly the ex husband's behaviour wouldn't have changed regardless of whether he'd got his way via the Sharia court or whatever.
I disagree. Apparently she contacted the police merely for non-molestation orders, twice. It's not even clear if he was prosecuted for hurting his son, the abduction clearly was solved without help by the officials and thereby without having informed them.

With that kind of history it should have been easy to get help by the courts, But you won't be helped unless you inform the police et al.
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Old 15.09.2017, 15:48
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Certainly. But what else can you do?
For a start, talk about it, make people aware. I think many people who could be raising awareness are not for fears of being called racist, or that such a discussion might play into the hands of the far right.

As long as you're not prepared to admit there is a problem you have little chance of actually solving it.

And then reach out to the communities in question and talk to them and educate them.
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Old 15.09.2017, 17:08
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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For a start, talk about it, make people aware. I think many people who could be raising awareness are not for fears of being called racist, or that such a discussion might play into the hands of the far right.

As long as you're not prepared to admit there is a problem you have little chance of actually solving it.

And then reach out to the communities in question and talk to them and educate them.
That's a longer term undertaking by the community and society as a whole. The question at hand is on what an individual can do, and quickly.
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