All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe) - Page 79

marton · #**1561** 07.01.2018, 02:20

	Quote:	Capo
	Perfectly summed up.

But completely without any reference to credible sources

marton · #**1562** 07.01.2018, 02:27

	Quote:
	Your reply is a non sequitur. We're not talking about "all religions claiming to be the one true one" (which is a false assertion, anyway). We're talking about your insistence that the whole point of Islam isn't to bring down "Western civilisation", when, indeed, that's the exact whole point. Since you want to compare Islam to Christianity, let's look at the founders: Mohammed established an Islamic state. Jesus was killed by the state. The consequence? A Christian state is a heretical notion, whereas an Islamic state is entirely in keeping with the intentions and actions of Mohammed. Christians were instructed to go out and tell everyone the Good News (hence the god-botherers on your doorstep), but they were not instructed to go and set up an actual state like Mohammed actually did in his actual own lifetime. Christians are supposed to wait for Jesus to organise that when He returns. In the quote that Marton pilfered from somewhere off the internet, it says: "Islam has undertaken the responsibility of cultural construction, the building of the order of life" Do you understand what that means? It means that Islam is all about building an entirely new culture, an entirely new order. It always was. That's what Mohammed's entire mission was about. That's what the Arab conquest of North Africa and Persia and the Levant was all about. It wasn't about preserving the old ways - it was about destroying the old ways and replacing them with something new. Now, whether the "something new" is a good thing or not is an entirely different argument (hint: a thousand years ago, it generally was. Nowadays, not so much). Whether most Muslims are engaged in the struggle to establish "something new" across the world is also a different argument (hint: they're not). But to deny that the entire bleedin point of Islam isn't to take over the world and establish a new Islamic order suggests that you learnt everything you know about Islam from a quick guide in a sidebar of the Guardian.

"the whole point of Islam isn't to bring down "Western civilisation", when, indeed, that's the exact whole point."

Very perceptive of Islam since it started long before there was any Western civilisation to bring down. What nonsense you write!

"the entire bleeding point of Islam is to take over the world" completely without any credible sources

"In the quote that Marton pilfered from somewhere off the internet" complete hypocrisy when you never attempt to provide any sources yourself for your own fantasies

Of course we believe every word you write

Capo · #**1563** 07.01.2018, 07:14

	Quote:	marton
	Quoting random passages from the Koran completely out of their context is no basis for education Based on such superficial arguments you could also claim that burning 40,000 alleged witches is a reasonable argument against Christianity. Source

From your own source:

The great age of witch trials, which ran between 1550 and 1700...

Islam is stuck 500 years in the past. Please, stop denying facts!

Do you want a definitive source? Here it is.

#**1564** 07.01.2018, 07:19

	Quote:	Capo
	From your own source: *The great age of witch trials, which ran between 1550 and 1700...* Islam is stuck 500 years in the past. Please, stop denying facts! Do you want a definitive source? Here it is.

I suspect a more relevant source might be this:

	Quote:	marton
	Oh, another roundAttachment 131430

TobiasM · #**1565** 07.01.2018, 08:39

	Quote:	marton
	"the whole point of Islam isn't to bring down "Western civilisation", when, indeed, that's the exact whole point." Very perceptive of Islam since it started long before there was any Western civilisation to bring down. What nonsense you write! "the entire bleeding point of Islam is to take over the world" completely without any credible sources "In the quote that Marton pilfered from somewhere off the internet" complete hypocrisy when you never attempt to provide any sources yourself for your own fantasies Of course we believe every word you write

I never took DB to be a fear monger. But, hey ho. The teachings of most old books are usually not applicable in the modern world and while I am not going to defend or denounce any particular religion, I think you'll find that the majority of people are not that literal about the teachings contained. However you will find an orthodox, fundamental and devout proportion that will take the teachings literally. These beliefs are not confined to the Quran, but are found in all religious texts. A whopping example is the American Conservative Right that repeatedly refers to parts of the Bible to counter giving equal rights to LGBTQ people. These are supposed to be modern educated people living in a Western society. My point is DB that even if the Quran has bits in it about creating a global Caliphate, and having the world follow the teachings of Mohammed and Islam (you could post the exact exerts of the texts here, although I am not that interested.) The majority of Muslims just want to worship for themselves and are not on a mission to create a global Caliphate. Now I won't say I personally agree with most teachings of most religions, I am an Atheist, I have a background in Science, but I am not going to be as extreme as Dawkins who sits at the other end of the spectrum. Its a world where some people need to believe in something more then others to give meaning and purpose to existence. Islam is just one of those mechanisms. The majority are not out on the streets of Pakistan burning American flags, nor are they plotting to overthrow the West with Islamic culture. Its a minority that stoke fear and resentment and that is applicable on both sides of the debate.

#**1566** 07.01.2018, 08:53

	Quote:	TobiasM
	I never took DB to be a fear monger. But, hey ho. The teachings of most old books are usually not applicable in the modern world and while I am not going to defend or denounce any particular religion, I think you'll find that the majority of people are not that literal about the teachings contained. However you will find an orthodox, fundamental and devout proportion that will take the teachings literally. These beliefs are not confined to the Quran, but are found in all religious texts. A whopping example is the American Conservative Right that repeatedly refers to parts of the Bible to counter giving equal rights to LGBTQ people. These are supposed to be modern educated people living in a Western society. My point is DB that even if the Quran has bits in it about creating a global Caliphate, and having the world follow the teachings of Mohammed and Islam (you could post the exact exerts of the texts here, although I am not that interested.) The majority of Muslims just want to worship for themselves and are not on a mission to create a global Caliphate. Now I won't say I personally agree with most teachings of most religions, I am an Atheist, I have a background in Science, but I am not going to be as extreme as Dawkins who sits at the other end of the spectrum. Its a world where some people need to believe in something more then others to give meaning and purpose to existence. Islam is just one of those mechanisms. The majority are not out on the streets of Pakistan burning American flags, nor are they plotting to overthrow the West with Islamic culture. Its a minority that stoke fear and resentment and that is applicable on both sides of the debate.

Reading comprehension skills 0/10

Never mind. At least ignorance has a cure.

marton · #**1567** 07.01.2018, 09:09

	Quote:
	Reading comprehension skills 0/10 Never mind. At least ignorance has a cure.

Indeed.

Here you can read the Koran in English.

Guess what? The word Caliphate does not exist

#**1568** 07.01.2018, 09:16

Lol. Have a nice Sunday.

22 yards · #**1569** 07.01.2018, 11:18

	Quote:	marton
	Indeed. Here you can read the Koran in English. Guess what? The word Caliphate does not exist

Using your argument, the word "Koran" doesn't exist either.

Don't take this post as evidence that I agree with DB, though.

marton · #**1570** 07.01.2018, 11:35

	Quote:	22 yards
	Using your argument, the word "Koran" doesn't exist either. Don't take this post as evidence that I agree with DB, though.

I must have linked to the wrong Holy Book.

kriss kross · #**1571** 07.01.2018, 11:39

I like the argument that all religions are equally bad/wrong/troublesome.

I can agree that they're all arguably 'bad', but the idea that they are all exactly equal, that they have the same number/percentage of extremists and that they all currently pose an equal threat to the world is a liberal cop out.

marton · #**1572** 07.01.2018, 12:07

	Quote:
	I suspect a more relevant source might be this:

Great evening, the only downer was walking home a Km in darkness as here they turn off the street lights at 1am

marton · #**1573** 07.01.2018, 12:13

	Quote:	Capo
	From your own source: *The great age of witch trials, which ran between 1550 and 1700...* Islam is stuck 500 years in the past. Please, stop denying facts! Do you want a definitive source? Here it is.

Religious scholars study the Koran for many years to understand it, I will let you know when I have enough time available

It is only 250 pages

TobiasM · #**1574** 07.01.2018, 14:14

	Quote:
	Reading comprehension skills 0/10 Never mind. At least ignorance has a cure.

I read your posts DB, I do know what you are trying to say. The thing is regardless of what you are claiming to be the mission statement of Islam, it is intrinsically the same in most religions, i.e. trying to attract more followers into the flock/herd or whatever, to believe in that one true god as all others must be wrong and so nonbelievers will burn perish or not be saved in the afterlife or whatever bad ending is promised by any particular belief. I am merely pointing out that most Muslims or followers of Islam most probably do not aim to bring down Western society, and attributing a few horrendous terrorist acts and a few criminal/sexual predators to the whole religion and its followers can very well be considered xenophobia.

There, there, Kriss Kross, take yer meds and settle down.

#**1575** 07.01.2018, 14:23

	Quote:	TobiasM
	I read your posts DB, I do know what you are trying to say. The thing is regardless of what you are claiming to be the mission statement of Islam, it is intrinsically the same in most religions, i.e. trying to attract more followers into the flock/herd or whatever, to believe in that one true god as all others must be wrong and so nonbelievers will burn perish or not be saved in the afterlife or whatever bad ending is promised by any particular belief. I am merely pointing out that most Muslims or followers of Islam most probably do not aim to bring down Western society, and attributing a few horrendous terrorist acts and a few criminal/sexual predators to the whole religion and its followers can very well be considered xenophobia. There, there, Kriss Kross, take yer meds and settle down.

You don't seem to know much about the religions of the world, let alone Islam, if you really believe that.

Go and get educated, then we can talk. Until then, I'm just wasting my time.

#**1576** 07.01.2018, 14:33

	Quote:	kriss kross
	I can agree that they're all arguably 'bad', but the idea that they are all exactly equal, that they have the same number/percentage of extremists and that they all currently pose an equal threat to the world is a liberal cop out.

The best source of information about Islam is an honest muslim, not a dishonest liberal.

22 yards · #**1577** 07.01.2018, 14:37

	Quote:	Phos
	The best source of information about Islam is an honest muslim, not a dishonest liberal.

Ah, so now Muslims can't be liberal? Or is "liberal" a new religion that I hadn't heard of till now?

22 yards · #**1578** 07.01.2018, 14:39

	Quote:	marton
	I must have linked to the wrong Holy Book.

No, your book link was fine. It links to the Quran, an alternative spelling of "Koran", in much the same way as many synonyms and euphemisms exist for the word "caliphate".

st2lemans · #**1579** 07.01.2018, 15:02

	Quote:	TobiasM
	A whopping example is some members of* the American Conservative Right that repeatedly refers to parts of the Bible to counter giving equal rights to LGBTQ people.*

FTFY.

I know plenty of the "American Conservative Right" who aren't into Jesus or the bible and don't have a problem with LGBTQ people.

Tom

TobiasM · #**1580** 07.01.2018, 15:11

	Quote:
	Go and get educated, then we can talk. Until then, I'm just wasting my time.

Well you can blow your PGCE trumpet mate. For a few posts I thought you might be a tolerable person with a smattering of humour, how wrong I was. I don't claim to know everything. But you seem too be a teeny tiny bit full of yourself. Btw, I have an education and life experience outside of the UK, Switzerland and Europe. Maybe more then yours, maybe less, we may never find out. And yes you and me both are wasting our time bantering on this forum with strangers about subjects that neither of us really know about, but have managed to form such strong opinions on anyway. Still carry on. *doffs cap and steps out*.

ps. I know you'll want to get the last word in, everybody on this crap thread seems to want too. But I don't care. x