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Old 08.01.2018, 10:39
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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One of the most irritating things I see is when a western liberal prevents a frank and open discussion between real Muslims and non-Muslims, because said liberal gets nervous about it.
That speaks volumes more about their blithering discussion skills than the sensibilities of your generic western liberal really, doesn't it?

Sounds like you are the one getting nervous about it.
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Old 08.01.2018, 10:46
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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My pleasure.

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
Link 4


To be honest, you can interchange the word "Muslim" in those surveys with "Christian" and the figures wouldn't be that far off.

A reasonable whack of Christians are against homosexuality and would be happy to see a return to a more draconian justice system. So far the reality is that common sense has prevailed despite the best efforts of the church and the doom-foretellers.

No idea why everyone is clutching at their pearls, hysterical that the Muslims will be more successful than the Christians at punching their own ideals into society. But hey, it sells newspapers and gets everyone in a chin-wagging frenzy, right?
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  #1603  
Old 08.01.2018, 11:05
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Many of the more conservative and traditionalist Muslims I have conversed with have been French Muslims, hailing from North Africa, where things are different than in the Middle East.

But one recurring message I picked up, especially from the older generation, that is people who came to France in the 1960s and early 1970s and are now grandparents is that they feel the Liberal Establishment has got between them and the education of their children, and that they feel their children and grandchildren don't understand Islam properly and in its real context because they didn't get that context and they were taught things at school that contradict with that context. One guy told me that back in the 1980s, that long before Islamic extremism was the problem it was now, there was a group of young guys in his mosque who were talking like that and meeting outside of official prayer times and being taught things by self proclaimed teachers that were in contradiction to what the main Imam was saying. He said the mosque elders wanted to slam their foot down on that, and there had been some heated confrontations between mosque elders and these guys. These young guys had called in the police and basically got a court order prohibiting the elders from confronting them. This guy said we could have stamped out radicalism but your liberal state wouldn't let us. And this from a self avowed traditionalist. This is just one side of the story of course. So it needs to be seen through some filters.

The same guy told me BTW that he felt traditional Muslims had more in common with people like Le Pen than any of the more liberal parties because they stood for the same things, and he fully supported their fight to preserve traditional French values. But he regretted that many FN supporters didn't understand that.

Maybe conservatives need to reach out to Muslims a bit more?
"they were taught things at school that contradict with that context" What? Like evolution?

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Turkey drops theory of evolution from national curriculum as children go back to school
Source

I do not mean to embarrass you by quoting sources instead of anecdotes
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  #1604  
Old 08.01.2018, 11:08
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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...
Since you want to compare Islam to Christianity, let's look at the founders: Mohammed established an Islamic state. Jesus was killed by the state. The consequence? A Christian state is a heretical notion, whereas an Islamic state is entirely in keeping with the intentions and actions of Mohammed.
LOL

Someone please show this post to the pope so he can start the diplomatic contacts to make Italy acquire the Vatican.

Oh the things you learn on EF...
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Old 08.01.2018, 11:09
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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We do all need to get along. Blind tolerance however isn't the answer to achieving this. First we have to admit there's a problem and then discuss it. This is where people like you fail.
There's a step beyond that, which is supporting the people you love who are breaking down barriers, despite what anyone thinks of them and says to them.

You always call me a liar on this, yet two of my closest gay friends are Muslim. One is probably the most thoughtful, considerate and caring man I've ever known, and always the first person to call to wish me 'Merry Christmas', the other is the fiance of my closest gay friend, who happens to be Jewish. Both families completely support this relationship, and I've seen that love and support for them first hand.

You can quote all the number that you like. They're just cold figures on a page when there are real people out there living lives that blow all your stats out of the water. And just to update you a little, the first UK gay Muslim marriage happened in 2017, and a major UK tv soap opera is currently running the storyline of a married Muslim woman on the verge of leaving her husband for her girlfriend. Millions of people are watching that story develop and millions will be having that conversation. Your views are way behind what is currently happening in the UK, and your dialogue on the issue is regressive.
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  #1606  
Old 08.01.2018, 11:13
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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That speaks volumes more about their blithering discussion skills than the sensibilities of your generic western liberal really, doesn't it?

Sounds like you are the one getting nervous about it.
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To be honest, you can interchange the word "Muslim" in those surveys with "Christian" and the figures wouldn't be that far off.

More like standard obfuscation path to avoid a discussion. If denial does not work, then compare to some imaginary Christians. LOL.
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  #1607  
Old 08.01.2018, 11:17
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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About here would be really good to provide a link. Just sayin’...

Most of the polls I see rate UK Muslims tolerating homosexuality more than UK Christians.
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My pleasure.

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
Link 4
Only two of these four links mention homosexuality
And both of these two reference an ICM poll which is likely the same one

Also a very positive statement from your links
Quote:
The research suggests that 86% of British Muslims feel a strong sense of belonging in Britain, which is higher than the national average of 83%.
A large majority (91%) of the British Muslims who took part in the survey said they felt a strong sense of belonging in their local area, which is higher than the national average of 76%.
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Old 08.01.2018, 11:22
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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More like standard obfuscation path to avoid a discussion. If denial does not work, then compare to some imaginary Christians. LOL.
Well, actually my imaginary Christians were propping up your imaginary Muslims and non-Muslims who were in some kind of imaginary grip of fear from your imaginary generic Western liberal.

Which was kind of helping you limp along with your imaginary agenda.

You're welcome, cupcake... Mwahh!
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Old 08.01.2018, 11:24
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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To be honest, you can interchange the word "Muslim" in those surveys with "Christian" and the figures wouldn't be that far off.

A reasonable whack of Christians are against homosexuality and would be happy to see a return to a more draconian justice system. So far the reality is that common sense has prevailed despite the best efforts of the church and the doom-foretellers.
You asked him for links and he provided them. Now you nonchalantly explain that Christians 'wouldn't be that far off'

I'm curious as to what your source is to suggest that over half of the Christians in the UK think homosexuality should be illegal?
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Old 08.01.2018, 11:26
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Well, actually my imaginary Christians were propping up your imaginary Muslims and non-Muslims who were in some kind of imaginary grip of fear from your imaginary generic Western liberal.

Which was kind of helping you limp along with your imaginary agenda.

You're welcome, cupcake... Mwahh!
Run for the hills!!!

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  #1611  
Old 08.01.2018, 11:32
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You asked him for links and he provided them. Now you nonchalantly explain that Christians 'wouldn't be that far off'

I'm curious ad to what your source is to suggest that over half of the Christians in the UK think homosexuality should be illegal?
Oh c'mon, maybe not illegal per se (probably marriage and adoption rights are the big thing for them) but they certainly don't think like it is a "normal" thing. I think that even if it were only an estimation, it would be quite close to reality. Lots of people believe that either
- homosexuality is a choice - a chosen, sinful lifestyle
or
- a desease.
The relative tolerance to it doesn't mean acceptance. Most are willing to tolerate it as long as gay people don't ask for equal rights and don't expose their sexuality too much.
You must already know this...
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  #1612  
Old 08.01.2018, 11:33
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Run for the hills!!!


Castro, that looks like Pamela Gellar's website counterpart. Levelsetting?
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  #1613  
Old 08.01.2018, 11:36
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You asked him for links and he provided them. Now you nonchalantly explain that Christians 'wouldn't be that far off'

I'm curious as to what your source is to suggest that over half of the Christians in the UK think homosexuality should be illegal?
I wasn't asserting that there was "poll after poll", though...

But since you are asking, take your pick.
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Old 08.01.2018, 11:38
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Oh c'mon, not illegal per se but they certainly don't think like it is a "normal" thing. I think that even if it were only an estimation, it would be quire close to reality. Lots of people believe that either
- homosexuality is a choice, a chosen, sinful lifestyle
or
- a desease.
The relative tolerance to it doesn't mean acceptance.

Who cares what who thinks, its the actions that are of any importance. I sometimes hold gingers under suspicion.

I think homosexuality exists in the vast majority of families in the West. Some may not like it, but we don't seek to punish it. We're not even allowed to. Its not like we're not throwing them off roofs, are we?

Trying to find equivalency there is grasping at straws.
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Old 08.01.2018, 11:47
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I'm curious as to what your source is to suggest that over half of the Christians in the UK think homosexuality should be illegal?
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I wasn't asserting that there was "poll after poll", though...

But since you are asking, take your pick.
Great, now which one suggests that over half of the Christians in the UK think homosexuality should be illegal?
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Old 08.01.2018, 11:50
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Great, now which one suggests that over half of the Christians in the UK think homosexuality should be illegal?
Why do you want me to link to something I didn't say in the first place?

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A reasonable whack of Christians are against homosexuality and would be happy to see a return to a more draconian justice system. So far the reality is that common sense has prevailed despite the best efforts of the church and the doom-foretellers.
You are awfully keen to drill down on links and facts when it's something which doesn't chime with your views, aren't you..?

Where did you get the "illegal" and "over half" stuff anyway? Are you confusing everyone's posts..? (I'm the one with the queen in the avatar - HTH)
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Old 08.01.2018, 11:51
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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"they were taught things at school that contradict with that context" What? Like evolution?



Source

I do not mean to embarrass you by quoting sources instead of anecdotes
Interesting how you jump to comletely incorrect conclusions, and assume nonsense rather than ask..

To take your argument on a reductio ad absurdum, if your suggestion that teaching evolition to Muslims radicalizes them, then surely the Turkish decison is correct.

Meanwhile I'll leave you to continue this imaginary discussion in your own personal rut safe space.
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Old 08.01.2018, 11:51
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You asked him for links and he provided them. Now you nonchalantly explain that Christians 'wouldn't be that far off'

I'm curious as to what your source is to suggest that over half of the Christians in the UK think homosexuality should be illegal?
Can't find a decent survey for the UK. However this one for the US in interesting
Quote:
US Muslims are more accepting of homosexuality than White evangelicals
source

Also found separate UK surveys indicating that 40% of Christians believe homosexuality is "always wrong", not so far off the 50% of Muslims in the ICM survey. However two different polls with two different questions so difficult to compare.
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Old 08.01.2018, 11:52
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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To be honest, you can interchange the word "Muslim" in those surveys with "Christian" and the figures wouldn't be that far off.

A reasonable whack of Christians are against homosexuality and would be happy to see a return to a more draconian justice system. So far the reality is that common sense has prevailed despite the best efforts of the church and the doom-foretellers.

No idea why everyone is clutching at their pearls, hysterical that the Muslims will be more successful than the Christians at punching their own ideals into society. But hey, it sells newspapers and gets everyone in a chin-wagging frenzy, right?
Saying "well a lot of Christians believe the same" without posting any evidence still doesn't explain nor excuse these poll findings.

But there's an even bigger story here which the "well you see that in Christianity" brigade also seem to deliberately forget, Europe is moving away from Christianity and becoming more atheist. More than half of people in the UK now say they are not religious.. Meanwhile, Islamic populations across western Europe is projected to grow.

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There's a step beyond that, which is supporting the people you love who are breaking down barriers, despite what anyone thinks of them and says to them.

You always call me a liar on this, yet two of my closest gay friends are Muslim. One is probably the most thoughtful, considerate and caring man I've ever known, and always the first person to call to wish me 'Merry Christmas', the other is the fiance of my closest gay friend, who happens to be Jewish. Both families completely support this relationship, and I've seen that love and support for them first hand.

You can quote all the number that you like. They're just cold figures on a page when there are real people out there living lives that blow all your stats out of the water. And just to update you a little, the first UK gay Muslim marriage happened in 2017, and a major UK tv soap opera is currently running the storyline of a married Muslim woman on the verge of leaving her husband for her girlfriend. Millions of people are watching that story develop and millions will be having that conversation. Your views are way behind what is currently happening in the UK, and your dialogue on the issue is regressive.
My views are not regressive, I've not even stated them here, all I've done is describe the reality of what's happening. Your gay friends (if they exist) are the exception, not the norm. And Coronation Street is a TV show. Like Doctor Who.
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  #1620  
Old 08.01.2018, 11:55
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Who cares what who thinks, its the actions that are of any importance. I sometimes hold gingers under suspicion.

I think homosexuality exists in the vast majority of families in the West. Some may not like it, but we don't seek to punish it. We're not even allowed to. Its not like we're not throwing them off roofs, are we?

Trying to find equivalency there is grasping at straws.
Sigh!

Attacks on LGBT people surge almost 80% in UK over last four years
More than one in five LGBT people verbally or physically attacked due to their sexual orientation or gender identity in last 12 months, figures show.

Home Office statistics showing that hate crime in general has risen by 48 per cent over the past three years

Source
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