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  #1661  
Old 08.01.2018, 13:55
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Just chucking this into the arena...

I've had cause for fisticuffs with people over aggressive recruitment tactics. 7yrs ago, some religious guys were harassing schoolgirls (they were in uniform) on the bus. The driver stopped the bus and I helped him to remove the guys when they decided to get physical. The driver called the police and the guys ran away. The guys were LDS and I've never experienced that with any other faith. I reported it to my neighbour, who is an LDS preacher, and he said the matter "would be dealt with".

If any other faith come door knocking, I just tell them I'm a Jewish lesbian. They never know how to respond to that and just leave.
LDS missionary yobbos...

Hard to believe.
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  #1662  
Old 08.01.2018, 14:03
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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History has shown that when times are tough, people find it much more palatable to blame the people they are told to blame, rather then face the fact that their society is broken through their own inaction. This is true even when their own personal experience is contradictory to the narrative they are told. To use the most extreme example, Germans who had coexisted peacefully with jewish neighbors for generations had no qualms about shopping their neighbors to the authorities.
Coexisted yes, but it wasn't until 1871 that Jews got the vote in Germany, and there were quite a lot of other discriminatory laws that weren't abolished until then, barring Jews from a catalogue of priviledges and professions. And when these were abolished there was a fair bit of unease. A lot of unpleasant people went banging on about the topic for years after.

In other words, when Hitler came to power, that was all still within living memory and he could tap into existing grievances.

Just because people appear to coexist peacefully doesn't mean there isn't discrimination under the surface.
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  #1663  
Old 08.01.2018, 14:06
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Why do you want me to link to something I didn't say in the first place?
I was referring to this:
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Most of the polls I see rate UK Muslims tolerating homosexuality more than UK Christians.
Have you got a link for these polls?
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  #1664  
Old 08.01.2018, 14:12
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I was referring to this:
Have you got a link for these polls?
I did link to it - you commented on it...
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  #1665  
Old 08.01.2018, 14:17
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I did link to it - you commented on it...
You linked a Google search which showed polls about US Christians attitudes to homosexuality.

Where are the polls that you said "rate UK Muslims tolerating homosexuality more than UK Christians"?
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  #1666  
Old 08.01.2018, 14:23
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

I found an interesting article by Johann Hari in the Huffington Post, originally published in Attitude magazine, but if I post it then I'll be accused of being a bigot.

So there we are. Aren't Anglicans a bunch of bastards, eh? Right?
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  #1667  
Old 08.01.2018, 14:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Coexisted yes, but it wasn't until 1871 that Jews got the vote in Germany, and there were quite a lot of other discriminatory laws that weren't abolished until then, barring Jews from a catalogue of priviledges and professions. And when these were abolished there was a fair bit of unease. A lot of unpleasant people went banging on about the topic for years after.

In other words, when Hitler came to power, that was all still within living memory and he could tap into existing grievances.

Just because people appear to coexist peacefully doesn't mean there isn't discrimination under the surface.
Only in Germany? I am happy that we have come a long way since those times. Though most probably there are still plenty of anti-semitic idiots.
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  #1668  
Old 08.01.2018, 14:57
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You linked a Google search which showed polls about US Christians attitudes to homosexuality.

Where are the polls that you said "rate UK Muslims tolerating homosexuality more than UK Christians"?

In the US, with a Muslim population of <1%, I assume you will find some of the most tolerant and peace loving Muslims in the world.

In the UK and other places, on the other hand, where they are coddled to a false sense of impunity by a retarded Left (ahem, Libtards), you may find a more aggressive assertion of their cultural "values" in regards to what they tolerate in their neighborhoods (ahem, parallel societies):
Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll <- That is even a Guardian article.
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  #1669  
Old 08.01.2018, 15:15
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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In the US, with a Muslim population of <1%, I assume you will find some of the most tolerant and peace loving Muslims in the world.

In the UK and other places, on the other hand, where they are coddled to a false sense of impunity by a retarded Left (ahem, Libtards), you may find a more aggressive assertion of their cultural "values" in regards to what they tolerate in their neighborhoods (ahem, parallel societies):
Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll <- That is even a Guardian article.
From the same poll
Quote:
The poll findings show that while European Muslims have embraced their nations, their nations have not embraced them.
British, French, and German Muslims are at least as likely as their respective general populations to say they identify either "extremely strongly" or "very strongly" with their country of residence.
49% of non Muslim Brits believe Muslims in UK are not loyal to this country.
This is a very old poll so I could not find and verify your quote.
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  #1670  
Old 08.01.2018, 15:20
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Further to my last post, regarding Johann Hari's article, I think it's time to clarify my position for those who haven't quite understood (yes, TobiasM, I'm looking at you).

I've been interested in Islam since long before it was fashionable. I am by no means a scholar, but I've read several books on the subject, both critical and hilariously biased, by "progressive" Muslims, "conservative" Muslims, sympathetic non-Muslims and furious anti-Muslims, over several years.

I used to know a lot of Muslims, too. Because I was perceived as being sympathetic to their cause (which I was, to be fair), I was treated to conversations a little deeper than the usual dinner party fare. Some opinions I heard were excessively liberal even to my agnostic ears (a drunken session with a Sufi in Istanbul springs to mind), whereas others were quite shocking even to my socially conservative ears (I heard that homosexuals should be put to death way more often that I've previously cared to admit. But hey, I'm not gay and everyone's entitled to her opinion, eh?). I encountered racism, bigotry, wisdom and clarity of thought in various measures and degrees. But, you know, it's a free country and we're all entitled to be wrong. Also, as a social conservative, I didn't always disagree with what they had to say, even if they were sometimes a bit extreme in their conclusions and suggested solutions.

If you scroll through the early part of this thread, you'll see that up until last summer, I always argued in defence of Muslims. I figured that much "islamophobia" was simply a respectable front for racism, that Muslims are scapegoats (which, let's be frank, they often are), that they needed defending. I gradually fell out of love with Islam as an ideology, but as Loz1983 has quite rightly pointed out several times: Islam and Muslims are not the same thing.

Then Charlottesville and a number of Islamist attacks happened. I don't want to rehash what I said back then - it's all on EF somewhere - but to summarise, I realised that I - and lots of people like me - were utter hypocrites. I was quick to chant that the only good Nazi was a dead Nazi, or that people who kept quiet or showed ambivalence towards white supremacy were a bunch of amoral enablers... but somehow, when it came to ideologically inspired pedestrian murderers of a different stripe, well, then, no, not all Muslims, etc etc...

Troubled by this sudden realisation that I'd been a Useful Idiot for the previous twenty years, I started to rethink my position. Actually, there is a problem with Islam in Europe. Actually, this has little to do with terrorism, but quite a lot to do with a mismatch between modern liberal culture and a profoundly conservative, somewhat alien culture. Actually, most Muslims are perfectly decent people to share a coffee with. Actually, quite a lot of Muslims hold opinions that would make Owen Jones throw up - but they don't always share them with non-Muslims for the same reason that most socially conservative people watch their tongues these days. Actually, Muslims are big boys and girls. Actually, Muslims don't need well-meaning dickheads like me to speak up for them - especially those who are trying their best to quell the rising bullshit amongst their communities.

The conversation needs to be had. Whether Islam is a nasty ideology is a matter of opinion. That Islam is an expansionist - and often aggressive - ideology is a plain fact. That Islam is fundamentally incompatible with modern liberal notions of diversity, tolerance and democracy - well, that's also a matter of opinion, but you only need to take a few minutes to read any serious theological work by Muslim scholars to see that it's a stitch up job at best. When Islamic activists drove the prostitutes out of a Birmingham suburb back in the eighties, I'm sure the local conservatives weren't too upset - but how does that tickle your liberal fancies?

But we can't have the conversation, because as soon as anybody dares show anything other than unwavering support for Islam and Muslims, he's a bigot. It happened to me last summer. It's happening to other members here, too. Ambivalence has no place in our new 'tolerant' world. Hey, as long as we all keep our religions to ourselves, it's cool, right? And everyone agrees with that, right? Right? Right?

Yeah, just keep saying that. Thunder against baptist bigots and presbyterian homophobes, but, well, it's not our place to tell other people what to believe. Who wants a samosa? Don't I look pretty in my sari?

Come on, people. I have good friends who are marxists, but it doesn't stop me from appraising marxism with a critical eye. Why should religions - any religions - be exempt from criticism?
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  #1671  
Old 08.01.2018, 15:52
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Further to my last post, regarding Johann Hari's article, I think it's time to clarify my position for those who haven't quite understood (yes, TobiasM, I'm looking at you).

I've been interested in Islam since long before it was fashionable. I am by no means a scholar, but I've read several books on the subject, both critical and hilariously biased, by "progressive" Muslims, "conservative" Muslims, sympathetic non-Muslims and furious anti-Muslims, over several years.

I used to know a lot of Muslims, too. Because I was perceived as being sympathetic to their cause (which I was, to be fair), I was treated to conversations a little deeper than the usual dinner party fare. Some opinions I heard were excessively liberal even to my agnostic ears (a drunken session with a Sufi in Istanbul springs to mind), whereas others were quite shocking even to my socially conservative ears (I heard that homosexuals should be put to death way more often that I've previously cared to admit. But hey, I'm not gay and everyone's entitled to her opinion, eh?). I encountered racism, bigotry, wisdom and clarity of thought in various measures and degrees. But, you know, it's a free country and we're all entitled to be wrong. Also, as a social conservative, I didn't always disagree with what they had to say, even if they were sometimes a bit extreme in their conclusions and suggested solutions.

If you scroll through the early part of this thread, you'll see that up until last summer, I always argued in defence of Muslims. I figured that much "islamophobia" was simply a respectable front for racism, that Muslims are scapegoats (which, let's be frank, they often are), that they needed defending. I gradually fell out of love with Islam as an ideology, but as Loz1983 has quite rightly pointed out several times: Islam and Muslims are not the same thing.

Then Charlottesville and a number of Islamist attacks happened. I don't want to rehash what I said back then - it's all on EF somewhere - but to summarise, I realised that I - and lots of people like me - were utter hypocrites. I was quick to chant that the only good Nazi was a dead Nazi, or that people who kept quiet or showed ambivalence towards white supremacy were a bunch of amoral enablers... but somehow, when it came to ideologically inspired pedestrian murderers of a different stripe, well, then, no, not all Muslims, etc etc...

Troubled by this sudden realisation that I'd been a Useful Idiot for the previous twenty years, I started to rethink my position. Actually, there is a problem with Islam in Europe. Actually, this has little to do with terrorism, but quite a lot to do with a mismatch between modern liberal culture and a profoundly conservative, somewhat alien culture. Actually, most Muslims are perfectly decent people to share a coffee with. Actually, quite a lot of Muslims hold opinions that would make Owen Jones throw up - but they don't always share them with non-Muslims for the same reason that most socially conservative people watch their tongues these days. Actually, Muslims are big boys and girls. Actually, Muslims don't need well-meaning dickheads like me to speak up for them - especially those who are trying their best to quell the rising bullshit amongst their communities.

The conversation needs to be had. Whether Islam is a nasty ideology is a matter of opinion. That Islam is an expansionist - and often aggressive - ideology is a plain fact. That Islam is fundamentally incompatible with modern liberal notions of diversity, tolerance and democracy - well, that's also a matter of opinion, but you only need to take a few minutes to read any serious theological work by Muslim scholars to see that it's a stitch up job at best. When Islamic activists drove the prostitutes out of a Birmingham suburb back in the eighties, I'm sure the local conservatives weren't too upset - but how does that tickle your liberal fancies?

But we can't have the conversation, because as soon as anybody dares show anything other than unwavering support for Islam and Muslims, he's a bigot. It happened to me last summer. It's happening to other members here, too. Ambivalence has no place in our new 'tolerant' world. Hey, as long as we all keep our religions to ourselves, it's cool, right? And everyone agrees with that, right? Right? Right?

Yeah, just keep saying that. Thunder against baptist bigots and presbyterian homophobes, but, well, it's not our place to tell other people what to believe. Who wants a samosa? Don't I look pretty in my sari?

Come on, people. I have good friends who are marxists, but it doesn't stop me from appraising marxism with a critical eye. Why should religions - any religions - be exempt from criticism?
Will you stop blowing your PGCE trumpet mate?



Excellent post btw.
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  #1672  
Old 08.01.2018, 15:56
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Start with those Muslims you know and who live and work around you.
Umm, there aren't any.

Tom
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  #1673  
Old 08.01.2018, 16:05
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Umm, there aren't any.

Tom
....and yet someone here (Capo?) believes he's surrounded my Muslims, Muslims everywhere....really people, let's move on.
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Old 08.01.2018, 16:22
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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....and yet someone here (Capo?) believes he's surrounded my Muslims, Muslims everywhere....really people, let's move on.
That beauty of it all is that everyone is entitled to their own opinions; whether you are a denialist, a libtard, a lefttard, or Capo.
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Old 08.01.2018, 16:26
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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....and yet someone here (Capo?) believes he's surrounded my Muslims, Muslims everywhere....really people, let's move on.
Or, rather - let's not move on. Let's talk about Capo's perception. How true is it? If he lives in East London, maybe he's got a point. If he lives in rural Schwyz, maybe he's just got a grudge against Mr Yilmaz upstairs.

I actually lived for a few years in the district shown in Capo's photograph and I loved it. A whole mile of curry and kebab houses, many open till four or five in the morning, and an Irish pub slap bang in the middle of it! What's not to love?

Well, some of my Mancunian neighbours weren't too keen. They'd seen some changes over the previous twenty years, not all of them positive. Were they wrong to express discomfort with what had happened to their home town? Were they bigots? The people who had moved in were just trying to make a living and raise their kids and keep some of their own customs just like anyone else - and surely they're entitled to do so? And, sure, it was a bit intimidating to go out during Eid when the gangs of lads would hang around and the police would bring in the big horses, but that's no different to New Years' Eve, is it?

It's a complicated topic, with several sides, all of whom have a right to be heard (yes, even those who would impose Shariah law on Europe), so why move on? The changes are still happening, as we speak. If we don't talk about it, somebody else will do the talking for us.
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  #1676  
Old 08.01.2018, 16:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

@DB

Referencing Johann Hari is not the best approach if you want people to take you seriously.

Quote:
Johann Hari used to be the Independent’s star columnist, a prolific polemicist and darling of the left, until his career imploded in disgrace when it emerged in 2011 that many of his articles contained quotes apparently said to him but in fact lifted from his interviewees’ books, or from previous interviews by other journalists.

Worse, he was exposed as a “sockpuppet”, or someone who anonymously furthers his own interests online.

Using a false identity, Hari had maliciously amended the Wikipedia pages of journalists he disliked – among them the Telegraph columnist Cristina Odone and the Observer’s Nick Cohen – accusing them of antisemitism, homophobia and other toxic falsehoods.
Under the same pseudonym, he had also edited his own Wikipedia page, lavishly flattering his profile to, as he puts it, “big myself up”.

The Independent suspended him, four months later he resigned, and no British newspaper has published his journalism since.
Source

You claim to well research topics before forming opinions but your posts often do not evidence that.
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Old 08.01.2018, 16:29
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

And Marton responds with a lazy two sentence answer that doesn't actually have anything to do with the post.

No surprise there, then.
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Old 08.01.2018, 16:36
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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And Marton responds with a lazy two sentence answer that doesn't actually have anything to do with the post.

No surprise there, then.

Oh, and "no British newspaper has published his journalism since."

- apart from the Guardian, this morning.
Ah, if only you could deliver factual arguments as prolifically as your ad hominem arguments then imagine how EF could be enriched.
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Old 08.01.2018, 16:44
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Ah, if only you could deliver factual arguments as prolifically as your ad hominem arguments then imagine how EF could be enriched.
Seems like DB is trying a new approach at discussions, using rationality and maybe a PGCE. Why try to pull him back in the swamp? You ought to try it yourself.

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Old 08.01.2018, 17:05
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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That Islam is an expansionist - and often aggressive - ideology is a plain fact. That Islam is fundamentally incompatible with modern liberal notions of diversity, tolerance and democracy - well, that's also a matter of opinion, but you only need to take a few minutes to read any serious theological work by Muslim scholars to see that it's a stitch up job at best.
Sounds concerning for some European countries given the projected growth of Islam.
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