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  #1681  
Old 08.01.2018, 16:18
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Or, rather - let's not move on. Let's talk about Capo's perception. How true is it? If he lives in East London, maybe he's got a point. If he lives in rural Schwyz, maybe he's just got a grudge against Mr Yilmaz upstairs.

I actually lived for a few years in the district shown in Capo's photograph and I loved it. A whole mile of curry and kebab houses, many open till four or five in the morning, and an Irish pub slap bang in the middle of it! What's not to love?
This sort of thing is like a Rohrschach blot. Different people see different things in it. Reactions can range from very positive to very negative with all the shades between.

And just like a Rohsrchach plot, there is no right or wrong. If we go around telling people who see something else than we do, that they must be wrong because we are right, then we have misundertood the essence of the Rohrschach test.

This brings us to the whole issue of taking offence. Before we take offence at something, be it a picture of Muslims celebrating Eid, or be it a statue of Robert Lee, we need to remember it is only a 3-D Rohrschach blot, and that if we need to tell other people what they should be seeing there, we need to think fast so we don't become the fascos in the discussion.

But likewise those creating the picture and holding the event need to think about how it may be viewed by others. This is not saying they shouldn't do it. But if somebody gets upset, hell, what were they expecting?

Only extemists have absolute explanations and absolute interpretations.
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  #1682  
Old 08.01.2018, 16:33
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Further to my last post, regarding Johann Hari's article, I think it's time to clarify my position for those who haven't quite understood (yes, TobiasM, I'm looking at you).

I've been interested in Islam since long before it was fashionable. I am by no means a scholar, but I've read several books on the subject, both critical and hilariously biased, by "progressive" Muslims, "conservative" Muslims, sympathetic non-Muslims and furious anti-Muslims, over several years.

I used to know a lot of Muslims, too. Because I was perceived as being sympathetic to their cause (which I was, to be fair), I was treated to conversations a little deeper than the usual dinner party fare. Some opinions I heard were excessively liberal even to my agnostic ears (a drunken session with a Sufi in Istanbul springs to mind), whereas others were quite shocking even to my socially conservative ears (I heard that homosexuals should be put to death way more often that I've previously cared to admit. But hey, I'm not gay and everyone's entitled to her opinion, eh?). I encountered racism, bigotry, wisdom and clarity of thought in various measures and degrees. But, you know, it's a free country and we're all entitled to be wrong. Also, as a social conservative, I didn't always disagree with what they had to say, even if they were sometimes a bit extreme in their conclusions and suggested solutions.

If you scroll through the early part of this thread, you'll see that up until last summer, I always argued in defence of Muslims. I figured that much "islamophobia" was simply a respectable front for racism, that Muslims are scapegoats (which, let's be frank, they often are), that they needed defending. I gradually fell out of love with Islam as an ideology, but as Loz1983 has quite rightly pointed out several times: Islam and Muslims are not the same thing.

Then Charlottesville and a number of Islamist attacks happened. I don't want to rehash what I said back then - it's all on EF somewhere - but to summarise, I realised that I - and lots of people like me - were utter hypocrites. I was quick to chant that the only good Nazi was a dead Nazi, or that people who kept quiet or showed ambivalence towards white supremacy were a bunch of amoral enablers... but somehow, when it came to ideologically inspired pedestrian murderers of a different stripe, well, then, no, not all Muslims, etc etc...

Troubled by this sudden realisation that I'd been a Useful Idiot for the previous twenty years, I started to rethink my position. Actually, there is a problem with Islam in Europe. Actually, this has little to do with terrorism, but quite a lot to do with a mismatch between modern liberal culture and a profoundly conservative, somewhat alien culture. Actually, most Muslims are perfectly decent people to share a coffee with. Actually, quite a lot of Muslims hold opinions that would make Owen Jones throw up - but they don't always share them with non-Muslims for the same reason that most socially conservative people watch their tongues these days. Actually, Muslims are big boys and girls. Actually, Muslims don't need well-meaning dickheads like me to speak up for them - especially those who are trying their best to quell the rising bullshit amongst their communities.

The conversation needs to be had. Whether Islam is a nasty ideology is a matter of opinion. That Islam is an expansionist - and often aggressive - ideology is a plain fact. That Islam is fundamentally incompatible with modern liberal notions of diversity, tolerance and democracy - well, that's also a matter of opinion, but you only need to take a few minutes to read any serious theological work by Muslim scholars to see that it's a stitch up job at best. When Islamic activists drove the prostitutes out of a Birmingham suburb back in the eighties, I'm sure the local conservatives weren't too upset - but how does that tickle your liberal fancies?

But we can't have the conversation, because as soon as anybody dares show anything other than unwavering support for Islam and Muslims, he's a bigot. It happened to me last summer. It's happening to other members here, too. Ambivalence has no place in our new 'tolerant' world. Hey, as long as we all keep our religions to ourselves, it's cool, right? And everyone agrees with that, right? Right? Right?

Yeah, just keep saying that. Thunder against baptist bigots and presbyterian homophobes, but, well, it's not our place to tell other people what to believe. Who wants a samosa? Don't I look pretty in my sari?

Come on, people. I have good friends who are marxists, but it doesn't stop me from appraising marxism with a critical eye. Why should religions - any religions - be exempt from criticism?
Thanks for going to the effort to write all of that for me, I am truly flattered and I am happy for you, that have found your true opinion on the matter, it must be a lovely feeling to have no more moments of anguished procrastination, no more doubts that you are helping a losing liberal cause, just your awakening, a realisation that what you believe to be true is, and just is. Good on yer fella. A few years in Switzerland achieved something for you then. But I didn't need the explanation frankly, it is your personal epiphany and it doesn't mean anything to me.

I do agree that religions should be subject to the upmost criticism, but criticism and challenging a belief is something other then constant posts here, stereotyping people and communities from many different walks of life, backgrounds and countries, and labelling them as extremists, terrorists or sexual predators. Just my pennies worth. I feel suitably disliked for challenging those views, but as I have said before, I am not that bothered.
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  #1683  
Old 08.01.2018, 16:37
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Thanks for going to the effort to write all of that for me, I am truly flattered and I am happy for you, that have found your true opinion on the matter, it must be a lovely feeling to have no more moments of anguished procrastination, no more doubts that you are helping a losing liberal cause, just your awakening, a realisation that what you believe to be true is, and just is. Good on yer fella. A few years in Switzerland achieved something for you then. But I didn't need the explanation frankly, it is your personal epiphany and it doesn't mean anything to me.

I do agree that religions should be subject to the upmost criticism, but criticism and challenging a belief is something other then constant posts here, stereotyping people and communities from many different walks of life, backgrounds and countries, and labelling them as extremists, terrorists or sexual predators. Just my pennies worth. I feel suitably disliked for challenging those views, but as I have said before, I am not that bothered.
You're actually illiterate, aren't you?

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  #1684  
Old 08.01.2018, 16:50
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You're actually illiterate, aren't you?

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Ah, if only you could deliver factual arguments as prolifically as your ad hominem arguments then imagine how EF could be enriched.
Would be so nice
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  #1685  
Old 08.01.2018, 16:51
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Seems like DB is trying a new approach at discussions, using rationality and maybe a PGCE. Why try to pull him back in the swamp? You ought to try it yourself.
ad hominem arguments are a new approach?
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  #1686  
Old 08.01.2018, 17:10
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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This brings us to the whole issue of taking offence. Before we take offence at something, be it a picture of Muslims celebrating Eid, or be it a statue of Robert Lee, we need to remember it is only a 3-D Rohrschach blot, and that if we need to tell other people what they should be seeing there, we need to think fast so we don't become the fascos in the discussion.

But likewise those creating the picture and holding the event need to think about how it may be viewed by others. This is not saying they shouldn't do it. But if somebody gets upset, hell, what were they expecting?

I think people have erroneously put a false value on getting offended. Its a currency that is over-produced and will only lead to some kind of hyper inflation of its value.

One has very little control over how another person reacts, perhaps even none. One has ultimate control over how one reacts to anything. <-- This is really the area that individuals need to focus on and we need to develop throughout society: How to get a grip of oneself.

I dunno, maybe to this end, I'm hoping more trolling might help.
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  #1687  
Old 08.01.2018, 17:11
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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And, sure, it was a bit intimidating to go out during Eid when the gangs of lads would hang around and the police would bring in the big horses, but that's no different to New Years' Eve, is it?
Reminds me of one night walking to Big Hands on Oxford Road with my mates during Diwali. One of my mates turned to another who is half Indian/half Scottish, and asked him what was going on? His answer... "How the eff should I know? I'm Catholic!!!"
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  #1688  
Old 08.01.2018, 17:12
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I think people have erroneously put a false value on getting offended. Its a currency that is over-produced and will only lead to some kind of hyper inflation of its value.

One has very little control over how another person reacts, perhaps even none. One has ultimate control over how one reacts to a thing. <-- This is really the area that individuals need to focus on and we need to develop throughout society: How to get a grip of oneself.

I dunno, maybe to this end, I'm hoping more trolling might help.
you're quite the self gripper
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Old 08.01.2018, 17:14
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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you're quite the self gripper
Weren't you the one triggered by Trump and the imaginary Russian Democracy Specialists?
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  #1690  
Old 08.01.2018, 17:22
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Seems like DB is trying a new approach at discussions, using rationality and maybe a PGCE. Why try to pull him back in the swamp? You ought to try it yourself.
PCGE, very useful

The goal of the Post Graduate Certificate in Education (PGCE—Primary) is to prepare confident and qualified graduates capable of:

Creating an effective and positive learning environment
Designing high quality lesson plans
Using research based instructional strategies to promote student learning
Using technology to affect learning
Assessing student learning needs, interests, progress and curricular goals
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Inspiring children to become life-long learners

They seem have dropped the goal about the value of ad hominem arguments
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Old 08.01.2018, 17:26
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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PCGE, very useful
....
They seem have dropped the goal about the value of ad hominem arguments
Ad Hominems are covered in the Master Trolling levels, Fake Material Marton!
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  #1692  
Old 08.01.2018, 17:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I think people have erroneously put a false value on getting offended. Its a currency that is over-produced and will only lead to some kind of hyper inflation of its value.

One has very little control over how another person reacts, perhaps even none. One has ultimate control over how one reacts to anything. <-- This is really the area that individuals need to focus on and we need to develop throughout society: How to get a grip of oneself.

I dunno, maybe to this end, I'm hoping more trolling might help.
The political machine has put the interests of the political process above the actual concerns that it is supposed to address. It is valuing its tools higher than their purpose. Like the farmer who forgets his plough is there to break ground, and spends so much time tinkering with his plough that he grows no crops. One way of dealing with this is political trolling. To induce reform through exaggeration. The trollmaster general in the White House is definitely doing his best to make the international trolletariat expose their own inadequacy by the way they are over-responding to him.

But is this the right way to awaken democracy from its slumber? One of the greatest trolls of history, Emperor Caligula, tried to awaken his people to the riduculous state in which politics of his day had descended. He nominated his horse as senator, odered the construction of an impossible bridge, and did many other absurd things beside. But people still didn't get it.

Trolling only works when people are sufficiently smart to see they are being trolled and sufficiently open minded to be prepared to change. That wasn't the case then and it isn't the case today.

Which isn't to say that trolling isn't fun while it lasts.
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  #1693  
Old 08.01.2018, 17:32
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

phos is a crap troll as he's trying way too hard. he should take a leaf out of my IBS
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Old 08.01.2018, 17:35
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phos is a crap troll as he's trying way too hard. he should take a leaf out of my IBS
So lets get back to Muslims, shall we?
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  #1695  
Old 08.01.2018, 17:35
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Ad Hominems are covered in the Master Trolling levels, Fake Material Marton!
You forgot the link
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  #1696  
Old 08.01.2018, 17:41
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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The political machine has put the interests of the political process above the actual concerns that it is supposed to address. It is valuing its tools higher than their purpose. Like the farmer who forgets his plough is there to break ground, and spends so much time tinkering with his plough that he grows no crops. One way of dealing with this is political trolling. To induce reform through exaggeration. The trollmaster general in the White House is definitely doing his best to make the international trolletariat expose their own inadequacy by the way they are over-responding to him.

But is this the right way to awaken democracy from its slumber? One of the greatest trolls of history, Emperor Caligula, tried to awaken his people to the riduculous state in which politics of his day had descended. He nominated his horse as senator, odered the construction of an impossible bridge, and did many other absurd things beside. But people still didn't get it.

Trolling only works when people are sufficiently smart to see they are being trolled and sufficiently open minded to be prepared to change. That wasn't the case then and it isn't the case today.

Which isn't to say that trolling isn't fun while it lasts.
Trolletariat! A new word that I like. I don't think Caligula was a troll, just a true tyrant of his times...(Trump though might be considered a troll, one who wants power not necessarily change) But anyway, let's play with the trolling thing - I prefer the trolling of Socrates, Plato and Diogenes. :-)
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Old 08.01.2018, 17:54
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Trolletariat! A new word that I like. I don't think Caligula was a troll, just a true tyrant of his times...(Trump though might be considered a troll, one who wants power not necessarily change) But anyway, let's play with the trolling thing - I prefer the trolling of Socrates, Plato and Diogenes. :-)
Why so you think that?

Surely a true tyrant tries to be a slimey as possible and to play the game to their own advantage?

Somebody who deliberately breaks the rules in a way that benefits nobody is either mentally deranged, or is playing the game on a higher level.

Of course many people say that Trump is mentally deranged, and I have no doubt they said that of Caligula in his time. But I like to entertain the notion that there may be another explanation. You know, people who are genuinely crazy but still functional generally try to hide their craziness, not draw attention to it.

Actually there is evidence that Plato was a troll. Not all the time obviously, but some of his writings do smell of it. Socrates was way too much of a nice guy to do that. I never studied Diogenes myself.
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Old 08.01.2018, 18:23
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

It is openly assumed and preached by imams that muslims should outnumber the non-believers. BTW, compare the birth rates of muslims in Europe with those of native Europeans:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...ion-in-europe/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth

Muslim population in some EU countries could triple, says report
Figures suggest stark east-west divide, with UK population share rising from 6.3% to 16.7% in one scenario


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...re-than-double

New World Order: Muslims to be majority in Europe within two generations

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...d-in-40-years/



According to some statistics above, CH is already at a 5% or even more, depending on the source. A genuine question is: are muslims from the Balkans a problem or not? My perception is that they aren't, unlike those from North Africa and Middle East who are denigrating the rest of Europe.

BTW, this video is about Montreal but could be Paris, London, Malmo, etc.:

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Old 08.01.2018, 18:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Since facts-deniers will call Rebel Media far-right and racist, could you please debunk the video below? Are these muslims in the video just a minority?

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Old 08.01.2018, 18:53
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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It is openly assumed and preached by imams that muslims should outnumber the non-believers. BTW, compare the birth rates of muslims in Europe with those of native Europeans:

According to some statistics above, CH is already at a 5% or even more, depending on the source. A genuine question is: are muslims from the Balkans a problem or not? My perception is that they aren't, unlike those from North Africa and Middle East who are denigrating the rest of Europe.

BTW, this video is about Montreal but could be Paris, London, Malmo, etc.:
"compare the birth rates of Muslims in Europe with those of native Europeans" These cunning Muslims are the cause of failing fertility of native Europeans!
LOL! That is a new one
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