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  #161  
Old 23.11.2015, 19:42
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

I believe the topic has been stretched too much.

Jesus was indulged by very few back in the day, hence the crucifixion.

I don't think the religions are to blame, rather the fanaticism and the luck of education.

Take football for example. If Arsenal FC had so many fanatic followers as islam has, I believe some jerks among them would set up to conquer the world and convert us all to Arsenal fans.

NOTE:
Nothing bad with Arsenal FC, used merely as an well known example.
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  #162  
Old 23.11.2015, 20:01
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I believe the topic has been stretched too much.

Jesus was indulged by very few back in the day, hence the crucifixion.

I don't think the religions are to blame, rather the fanaticism and the luck of education.

Take football for example. If Arsenal FC had so many fanatic followers as islam has, I believe some jerks among them would set up to conquer the world and convert us all to Arsenal fans.

NOTE:
Nothing bad with Arsenal FC, used merely as an well known example.

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. Stephen Hawking.






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  #163  
Old 23.11.2015, 20:09
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Ayaan Hirsi Ali thinks Islam needs reform
He's incorrect. This would be bid'ah and is haram. There's nothing wrong with Islam as it is, evidenced by hundreds of millions of religious Muslims who go about their day in much the same way as you or I. Islam isn't the cause of a single death or act of terrorism. It doesn't nothing bad. It also does nothing good. People do. If those same people weren't Muslims they'd be blowing themselves up or randomly shooting people in the name of something or someone else. The problem is a great number of desperate and marginalised people being lied to about their religion by a small number of people who want power. We see this everywhere except Islam happens to have spread to countries in Africa and Asia that have remained poor and unequal while most Christian countries are now rich and largely equal.

In countries with very few Muslims but with extreme poverty or inequality, we see the same patterns - Burundi and Rwanda where people are almost exclusively Catholic, urban/African American USA (street crime, gang violence perpetrated by disaffected youth), Burmese clergy etc etc. The difference is there's no supranational element to these - they stay out of the news because the violence is internal - there's nowhere to export the violence to and no reason to do it.
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  #164  
Old 23.11.2015, 20:12
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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He's incorrect.
You clearly must have researched her work and position very carefully since you are not even aware that she is a woman...
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Old 23.11.2015, 20:13
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You clearly must have researched her work and position very carefully since you are not even aware that she is a woman...
I'm not sexist.
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  #166  
Old 23.11.2015, 21:06
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I believe the topic has been stretched too much.

Jesus was indulged by very few back in the day, hence the crucifixion.

I don't think the religions are to blame, rather the fanaticism and the luck of education.

Take football for example. If Arsenal FC had so many fanatic followers as islam has, I believe some jerks among them would set up to conquer the world and convert us all to Arsenal fans.

NOTE:
Nothing bad with Arsenal FC, used merely as an well known example.

Ultra in Egypt would be a more relevant example? If not maybe the first but certainly the largest football supporters club to ever be officially declared a terrorist organisation.
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  #167  
Old 23.11.2015, 21:09
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I don't see how this is possible. The vast majority of Muslims don't or can't acknowledge there is a problem. The jury is still out on whether Jihad effectively helps the spread of Islam, or hinders it. There are many who believe Jihad helps the spread of Islam, and so will tacitly approve it. It would take an awful lot of convincing that Jihad hurts Islam before Muslims shelve the idea. I think a clear and utter failure of Jihad is the only thing that would convince them of it, if anything at all. Some take the results to date as indications of Jihad's success.

About "The vast majority of Muslims don't or can't acknowledge there is a problem. " Kind of a sweeping statement and how can you prove this?
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  #168  
Old 23.11.2015, 21:10
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

And on the other side you find hooligans like Çarşı to be one of the key forces that so far managed to stop Erdogans plans to make Turkey more Islamic...
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  #169  
Old 23.11.2015, 21:44
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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About "The vast majority of Muslims don't or can't acknowledge there is a problem. " Kind of a sweeping statement and how can you prove this?
With Islam? They think Islam is perfect. What other proof do you need?
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  #170  
Old 23.11.2015, 22:18
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

On Channel 4 tonight at 10pm Swiss time... ISIS: The British Women Supporters Unveiled http://www.channel4.com/info/press/n...upporting-isis

It may be worth a watch.
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  #171  
Old 23.11.2015, 22:23
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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With Islam? They think Islam is perfect. What other proof do you need?
Did you actually ever talked to a Muslim? None of the ones I know would describe Islam as perfect and will find a lot to criticize. But yes, they will insist that it's not the book but the interpretation of it in places like Saudi or Pakistan. I tend to agree. Same is true for the bible or any other holy book. If you cherry pick the violent parts can you always find an excuse for any atrocity.
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  #172  
Old 23.11.2015, 22:25
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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With Islam? They think Islam is perfect. What other proof do you need?
Can you prove this?
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  #173  
Old 23.11.2015, 23:00
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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He's incorrect. This would be bid'ah and is haram. There's nothing wrong with Islam as it is, evidenced by hundreds of millions of religious Muslims who go about their day in much the same way as you or I. Islam isn't the cause of a single death or act of terrorism. It doesn't nothing bad. It also does nothing good. People do. If those same people weren't Muslims they'd be blowing themselves up or randomly shooting people in the name of something or someone else. The problem is a great number of desperate and marginalised people being lied to about their religion by a small number of people who want power..
Hold that thought...

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Did you actually ever talked to a Muslim? None of the ones I know would describe Islam as perfect and will find a lot to criticize. But yes, they will insist that it's not the book but the interpretation of it in places like Saudi or Pakistan. I tend to agree. Same is true for the bible or any other holy book. If you cherry pick the violent parts can you always find an excuse for any atrocity.
Again, pardon my ignorance I have not read all of the Bible (although I have read some of it) and I have not read any of the Qu'ran, though I am aware that both contain horrific stories of murder and rape and such being condoned.

Is the Qu'ran not said to be the literal word of God? Are extremists not the purest of Muslims as they do not cherry pick? Which is the most religiously pure path, to cherry pick the nice bits of the books and disregard the atrocities, or to loyally follow it literally?

If some "number of desperate and marginalised people being lied to about their religion by a small number of people who want power", do you mean that the ones translating the scripts are lying? Has anyone read the Qu'ran in it's original classical Arabic and who understands the language, can anyone confirm whether or not all the stuff about pushing gay people off cliffs is really in there? and if the book is the literal word of Allah or not?

Hope I'm not upsetting anyone! I'd love to ask my muslim friends these questions but appreciate that it might come across as accusatory or attacky! I figure it's ok to ask online where people have a degree of anonymity and the choice to ignore

I sympathise completely with the need or the desire for God. But not understanding the need for a doctrine. They seem to be the problem!
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  #174  
Old 23.11.2015, 23:01
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Kind of logical, isn't it? In the Quran, Allah says he perfected Islam for Muslims. Find me a muslim who doesn't believe that, then you'll find a muslim who doesn't really believe that verse from the Quran.

And yes, I have discussed with plenty of Muslims.
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  #175  
Old 24.11.2015, 00:03
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All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

If your watch stops working you bring it to the watchmaker. Only the manufacture knows the secret of the product he produced.


In other words to understand the mentality of muslims you would have to go way back in history and ask who was their father ? Ishmael


Genesis 16:12 The Old Testament it says Ishmael:"a wild beast".


As I explained in my previous post Islam acknowledges that the Old Testament is divine.

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  #176  
Old 24.11.2015, 00:11
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Kind of logical, isn't it? In the Quran, Allah says he perfected Islam for Muslims. Find me a muslim who doesn't believe that, then you'll find a muslim who doesn't really believe that verse from the Quran.

And yes, I have discussed with plenty of Muslims.

OK, no proof then
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  #177  
Old 24.11.2015, 00:47
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Is the Qu'ran not said to be the literal word of God?
Yes.

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Are extremists not the purest of Muslims as they do not cherry pick?
I suppose but already you're getting into the problem of definitions. If extremist=fundamentalist, yes you're correct. If extremist=shoots a lot of people then no, you're probably not correct. Just because you think you're following some rules doesn't mean you actually are.


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If some "number of desperate and marginalised people being lied to about their religion by a small number of people who want power", do you mean that the ones translating the scripts are lying?
yes, or taking small excerpts out of context so as to obfuscate their meaning.

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Has anyone read the Qu'ran in it's original classical Arabic and who understands the language, can anyone confirm whether or not all the stuff about pushing gay people off cliffs is really in there?
It isn't in there, although homosexuality is proscribed as in the Old Testament.


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and if the book is the literal word of Allah or not?
Can't tell you that I'm afraid.

It isn't all as simple as reading the Quran and doing what it says. Almost no one can actually understand it.

I know that sounds weird because everyone speaks Arabic in the middle east (but they don't at all in eg Pakistan) so, since the language we're writing in here is English, here's a text in English from around the same sort of time as the Quran, see what you think.

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  #178  
Old 24.11.2015, 00:55
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Kind of logical, isn't it? In the Quran, Allah says he perfected Islam for Muslims. Find me a muslim who doesn't believe that, then you'll find a muslim who doesn't really believe that verse from the Quran.

And yes, I have discussed with plenty of Muslims.
What verse are we talking about phos?
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  #179  
Old 24.11.2015, 01:00
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Allah says he perfected Islam for Muslims.
To me, this phrase doesn't really make sense. It means "perfected the rules for those who follow them". Sort of a truism, right?
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  #180  
Old 24.11.2015, 01:02
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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i sympathise completely with the need or the desire for god. But not understanding the need for a dogma. They seem to be the problem!
ftfy
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