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  #261  
Old 11.01.2016, 13:27
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Oh, it was all a myth then? For a moment there, I was concerned about the safety of European women.
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  #262  
Old 11.01.2016, 13:32
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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This whole 4 eyewitnesses myth needs to be stopped - it is, quite simply, incorrect, illogical and stupid. It is used by people who have an axe to grind, in order to feel superior.
What about the fact that under islamic law (shariah) the womens testiomony is only worth half of a mans? So you need two womens testiomy to equal one mans.

https://islamqa.info/en/20051
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  #263  
Old 11.01.2016, 13:35
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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So, we got there in the end. The police/press/politicians have finally come clean and admitted that the attackers were "almost exclusively" migrants.

Things now getting fractious in Cologne with asylum seekers being attacked by a mob last night. Attacking the migrants doesn't solve anything. These people need to turn their frustrations on the state that has allowed this to happen.
I think they are.

A lot of people in Germany are pretty angry at Frau Merkel right now. People like Pegida always go to great lengths to denounce violence and to say they are calling out Merkel and that the migrants themsleves are victims.

The people who attack random brown.skinned people on the street are below contempt, and fortunately, they are a tiny minority.

The problem though is that the Merkelite press manages to twist every anti government protest as being an anti-immigrant one. Merkel is effectively using the migrants as a shield. If you call people something long enough (anti immigrant, far right, you name it) the danger is that some of them will come to associate themselves with what they are being called and ultimately become it.

This is especially dangerous from a government where you have people like de Maiere and Maas saying words are dangerous as they ultimately become actions. It is strange that they don't think the same applies to their own words.

I guess you reap what you sow.
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  #264  
Old 11.01.2016, 13:44
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Are you all sitting down? Because J2488 is about to lay some truth on you (and discredit Phos, but that ship sailed a long time ago).

For one and all, the truth behind the '4 eyewitnesses' myth.

The relevant sentences from the quran:
'...And those who calumniate (accuse) chaste women but bring not four witnesses - flog them eighty stripes and do not admit their evidence thereafter' An-Nur 24:5

People assume this means a woman needs 4 witnesses to a rape, but that is grossly misinterpreted.

The 4 witnesses are required to convict a woman of being an adulterer, not to prove she was raped.
I hope you are sitting down, because since you don't seem to realize rape victims are also considered guilty of adultery (ie: sex outside of marraige) you have just invalidated your entire counter argument....

Quote:
Pregnant teenager alleging gang-rape charged with adultery in Sudan

Ethopian teenager says she was raped by seven men last August, and now faces possible sentence of death by stoning


http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...arged-adultery

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Sharia courts in Pakistan have punished thousands of raped women who dared accuse their attacker of the crime with long term imprisonment. Bangladesh has flogged, beaten, and imprisoned raped women.

Families of rape victims in Afghanistan have honor-murdered their daughters for the shame of having been raped. Most recently, in 2014, one ten-year-old victim who was raped by a mullah in a mosque was saved, temporarily, by an Afghan and international woman’s group which has, so far, successfully persuaded her family not to kill her.
http://www.breitbart.com/national-se...-under-sharia/
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  #265  
Old 11.01.2016, 13:46
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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What about the fact that under islamic law (shariah) the womens testiomony is only worth half of a mans? So you need two womens testiomy to equal one mans.

https://islamqa.info/en/20051
Off topic, but i'll do you this public service.
Again, grossly misinterpreted.

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O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you.

The verse in question is 2:282. It refers exclusively to financial crime (what we would call white collar crime), not to physical crime or crime involving what we're talking about today.

It does refer to getting testimony from two reputable men or from one reputable man and two reputable women.

>It is a measure to prevent a woman's reputation from being attacked at a later date - nobody can claim that this one woman had a vendetta against the accused.
>The rule was designed for a time when financial matters were exclusively a male environment, so if a male witness couldn't be found, it was unlikely that a female one would. As being a witness is considered to be obligatory, if two female witnesses were found they would need to learn about the crime taking place; and since they would be new to this, its likely their opinions would differ. Thus, you would need to find two women, who both agreed that the crime had taken place, after taking into account of the facts. In today's society, it is widely acknowledged (by Muslim scholars) that a woman well-skilled in financial matter can testify by herself, if she chooses, and that her testimony will be no different to a mans.
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  #266  
Old 11.01.2016, 13:49
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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I hope you are sitting down, because since you don't seem to realize rape victims are also considered guilty of adultery (ie: sex outside of marraige) you have just invalidated your entire counter argument....


http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...arged-adultery


http://www.breitbart.com/national-se...-under-sharia/

I never said it was, but thank you for at least trying to counter-argue.

There is a vital difference, as written in the quran, between adultery (sex between two consenting adults) and rape (one non-consenting person).

Rape falls under the 'Hiraba' category of crime - the same that terrorism falls under. Adultery falls under 'Hadd', a completely seperate category which covers things like Theft, false accusations, and highway robbery (that one probably isnt as app;licable today as it used to be).

Sharia specifies that either one or the other is punished - the verse above confirms that. not both.

so, in these cases, it is not according to sharia, it is according more to local custom then to Sharia.
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  #267  
Old 11.01.2016, 13:51
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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The verse in question is 2:282. It refers exclusively to financial crime (what we would call white collar crime), not to physical crime or crime involving what we're talking about today.
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Sharia specifies that either one or the other is punished - the verse above confirms that. not both.

so, in these cases, it is not according to sharia, it is according more to local custom then to Sharia.
Using varying interpretations of religious scripture as the main legal structure is another huge problem in Arabic countries, but I guess we shouldn't get too far off topic...
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Old 11.01.2016, 13:55
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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I never said it was, but thank you for at least trying to counter-argue.

There is a vital difference, as written in the quran, between adultery (sex between two consenting adults) and rape (one non-consenting person).

Sharia specifies that either one or the other is punished - the verse above confirms that. not both.

so, in these cases, it is not according to sharia, it is according more to local custom then to Sharia.

By the way, about this argument you are winning... What is the argument about, who is it with, and what is the point? Is it for your own self-talk and self-convincing, or someone else's?
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  #269  
Old 11.01.2016, 13:56
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Using varying interpretations of religious scripture as the main legal structure is another huge problem in Arabic countries, but I guess we shouldn't get too far off topic...
Particularity when they twist it to suit their own objectives, but that is another topic for another day.
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  #270  
Old 11.01.2016, 13:57
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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By the way, about this argument you are winning... What is the argument about, who is it with, and what is the point? Is it for your own self-edification and self-talk, or someone else's?
Trying to educate people like you.

I'm beginning to see why your teachers gave up.

Lets not get too petty, phos. People might think you were just getting personal because you haven't got anything else of note to add.
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  #271  
Old 11.01.2016, 14:02
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Trying to educate people like you.
That's good, but you really have to balance it with objective realities for credibility. I think its fine to state that most Muslim do not believe and behave the ways some others do, and I can get on that. But to say it does not occur is stretching it.


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Lets not get too petty, phos. People might think you were just getting personal because you haven't got anything else of note to add.
But you ought to know that never happens.
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  #272  
Old 11.01.2016, 14:19
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Off topic, but i'll do you this public service.
Again, grossly misinterpreted.
Off topic? We were discussing the diffuculties women have reporting rape in islamic countries. Considering her testimony is only worth half of a man i'd say it's pretty relevant.

Grossly misinterpreted? That link and answer I posted was from Muhammad Al-Munajjid, an islamic scholar and iman of a mosque in Saudi Arabia. Are you saying that he has misinterpreted or I have?
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  #273  
Old 11.01.2016, 14:34
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Arab gang assaults in Germany

I wonder if there is a correlation between STDs and rape. Certainly there is one between promiscuity, but wether promiscuity is positively correlated with rape?
AIDS rate in Arab countries isn't worse than in many Western countries. Had rape been such more prevalent wouldn't we see more AIDS cases? Or even if rape were 10-100x times more frequent it would still have been so much lower compares to promiscuity that it would not have made any statistically significant difference of on STD rate?
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  #274  
Old 11.01.2016, 14:35
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Off topic? We were discussing the diffuculties women have reporting rape in islamic countries. Considering her testimony is only worth half of a man i'd say it's pretty relevant.

Grossly misinterpreted? That link and answer I posted was from Muhammad Al-Munajjid, an islamic scholar and iman of a mosque in Saudi Arabia. Are you saying that he has misinterpreted or I have?
Probably - both. Just because he has spent longer studying it, does not mean he is right.

As witnessed by the fact that he is a Salafi imam - a movement which covers a massive, enormous, gigantic, 2.9% of Muslims globally.

In other words, you found the biggest prick from a small group of particularly big needles, in the small needle box, in the enormous haystack.

i thought the topic of the thread was what happened in Cologne?
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  #275  
Old 11.01.2016, 14:42
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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I wonder if there is a correlation between STDs and rape. Certainly there is one between promiscuity, but wether promiscuity is positively correlated with rape?
AIDS rate in Arab countries isn't worse than in many Western countries. Had rape been such more prevalent wouldn't we see more AIDS cases? Or even if rape were 10-100x times more frequent it would still have been so much lower compares to promiscuity that it would not have made any statistically significant difference of on STD rate?


It is rumoured that the ISIS "warriors" are riddled with STDs due to their treatment of female prisoners. Very sad for the prisoners through no fault of their own.
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  #276  
Old 11.01.2016, 14:46
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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It is rumoured that the ISIS "warriors" are riddled with STDs due to their treatment of female prisoners. Very sad for the prisoners through no fault of their own.
I hope the bastards suffer a particularly nasty bout of Necrotising Fasciitis, in the genital region. No less then they deserve.
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  #277  
Old 11.01.2016, 14:49
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Probably - both. Just because he has spent longer studying it, does not mean he is right.

As witnessed by the fact that he is a Salafi imam - a movement which covers a massive, enormous, gigantic, 2.9% of Muslims globally.

In other words, you found the biggest prick from a small group of particularly big needles, in the small needle box, in the enormous haystack.

i thought the topic of the thread was what happened in Cologne?
2.9% of global Islam is approximately 45 million people.

Even if that somehow seems like a small number to some, Salafism is backed up by Saudi Arabia. What proportion of global Islamic money would that be?
Lots of non-salafist mosques host salafist preachers since that means getting money from Saudi backed sources.

I agree with the position that along with jail and possible deportation, aggressive integration is an important way to reduce the likelihood of such attacks over time. Meanwhile, salafist preachers try their best to undo the benefit of integration classes.

To ignore the influence of Salafist imams all over the globe is unwise.
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  #278  
Old 11.01.2016, 14:52
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

I couldn't agree more.

The problem is that Salafism is backed up by Wahhabism. In particular, Wahhabism from Saudi Arabia.

That Saudi Arabia which has become rich from selling oil to the west, and which is one of the wests biggest allies.

the other 97.1% of muslims do not have the money to compete. Hence, theyre unable to stop Salafism creep.

I am aware anecdotally of different muslim communities in the north of England coming together to keep salafism and wahhabism out of their communities - to the extent where they pooled resources and fought them in the courts. Unfortunately, they rarely win, due to their inferior resources.

That being said, not all Salafists are Wahhabists. Keep that in mind. There are plenty of nutters in both groups, though.

Think of Salafism/wahhabism being akin to the Westboro Baptist Church, with the wealth of Saudi Arabia. They're the muslim version.
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  #279  
Old 11.01.2016, 14:53
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

So if Muslims are the Uebermenschen of the world, then the Saudi Salafists are like the Uebermenschen of the Uebermenschen. As such, what they practice and believe could very well be relevant.
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Old 11.01.2016, 14:56
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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So if Muslims are the Uebermenschen of the world, then the Saudi Salafists are like the Uebermenschen of the Uebermenschen. As such, what they practice and believe could very well be relevant.
What the hell are you on about?

Who says they're the uebermenschen?

would you consider the Westboro baptist church as the uebermenschen of the uebermenschen of the christian world? Is what they believe relevant to other Christians?

Thought not.
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