I don't think Rotherham is really comparable.

We had a long discussion here at the time and if one thing struck me was there were regular particpants on this forum who knew the area and community concerned well and yet didn't suspect one thing. There was also a lot of talk of that being the tip of a far larger iceberg but things went quiet after that so you can maybe think there is an ongoing conspiracy theory or maybe think people are letting their imaginations run wild. The whole affair has, as far as I know, not had any far reaching seismic political consequences. Both BNP and UKIP tried to cash in on it but failed. It would take far more than that to unleash a seismic change in Britain. British politics is inherently much too stable for that type of thing.

What has happened in Germany is in my view an entirely different order of magnitude. It comes on top of an incredible polarisation of German society, and if there was a cover-up it wasn't about political nepotism as in Rotherham but it was the sheer shock of "we don't want this to be true so let it not have happened". This is the sort of asleep at the wheel thinking that occurs to governments that have had it too good for too long and come to believe things will always stay as they are.

So, while the thread is stuck in "why does the government not do anything" mode:

- the cops have arrested several suspects. Yes, they are refugees.
- the suspects were apparently fortunately stupid enough to shoot videos of the night on their mobiles, so the cops got some fresh leads now...
- the cops have been able to recover some of the stolen phones.
- yesterday did the media widely publish a leaked internal police report where a policeman wrote his view on the evening. Yes, it draws a bad picture of the refugees partying there. They have no respect for authorities whatsoever and were apparently very, very drunk and high. However, his report draws an even worse picture of the command line of the police: He explained in detail that their van was bombarded with firecrackers and bottles the moment they arrived. They asked for more forces for hours and were turned down by their bosses in the control room. It's not as first reported that the cops did not recognize what's happening, they simply where overwhelmed by the situation and clearly did not get the leadership they needed to respond properly. He wrote down in detail how they were swamped with victims but unable to follow up on reports that night but had their hands full trying to stop the mob from shooting firecrackers at people or entering the train tracks. And even failed at that.
- the media published today photos of notice papers found at one of the suspects (if this is real, how can literally everything the cops find be leaked to the media...?). It shows a vocabulary list where the guys clearly practiced what to say to women. It just supports the case that the assaults were clearly planned with the motive to rob women.

Bottom line:
- yes, a lot of the people involved were refugees.
- 120 police reports so far, about 40 of them for sexual assault (2 for rape), the rest is theft and robbery.
- the police was aware of the situation but clearly failed at their job a big time. What is worse is that the local authorities tried hard to cover the whole mess up and only media pressure managed to force them to admit it. Painstakingly slow and step-by-step.
- it looks like the leadership of the police did not just lie to the public but also misinformed the major.
- every single politician in Germany is releasing statements how they want the government to react strongly. Including Merkel.

The last two things are the worst in my eyes: You will always have criminals, all it takes is a society that knows how to deal with them. Right now do a lot of Germans lose quite a bit of trust into the police. They did not exactly trust the political establishment, but the show that's going on right now is just absurd. Clearly the head of police needs to step down and this is a matter for the city of Cologne. Since police is a state matter, probably for the government of NRW. Having every federal MP pretending he is going to do something about it while being part of the legislative, not the executive, and then of the wrong parliament that has nothing to do with police in Cologne is nothing but bizarre.

I am happy to see that the cops are systematically finding out what happened and who it was. I feel bad for the cops on the ground that night as they have gotten the blame for a situation they could not possibly manage on their own. I also feel bad for the many hundred thousands of refugees who had nothing to do with this but will feel the consequences. This has nothing to do with Arabian culture, but all with an organized gang of robbers who abused the chaos and situation to their advantage. All those "we have to tell those orientals how to respect women" talk shows right now are missing the point by a mile: This was not a cultural misunderstanding, it was a planned scheme.

The under-reporting of refugee crimes have been ongoing for a while now. This is a problem when law enforcement is an instruments of politics. It is flat out corruption. If law enforcement cannot protect its own people, society breaks down, and it is rational response for people to protect themselves.

I suspect sales of firearms will shoot up in Europe, if it isn't already now.

No it hasnt. crimes by refugees are, if anything, overreported. A native kills a man, its local news. A refugee does it, its international news.

And no, we have common sense laws in Europe that ensure that not every paranoid fool can own a device designed to kill.

Sounds like the kind of nonsense a Fox News 'expert' might say. Are you honestly suggesting that people would go onto the black market to buy illegal firearms?

Good marketing point , I adapt my advert consequently:
http://www.englishforum.ch/items-sal...ml#post2513526

PS: the problem in Europe is that the laws are pretty much against the victims (the one being assaulted and using a weapon for defense).

This is obvious.

But have you considered why this should be?

Why is not only the government but most if not all of the political forces of any relevance more afraid of maybe some thousand mid aged and older people carrying flags than they are of millions of people fresh into the country many of whom are young and angry.

And not just the political parties, but the whole juggernaut ranging from the press to the unions to the churches to whatnot?

Isn't this essentially the elephant being afraid of the mouse?

Isn't this strange, quite independently of what the realtive groups want or say or stand for?

And isn't it strange that so few people find this strange and so few call them out on it?

I know you like to reply to me in a sometimes condescending and sneering way, but I have tried to formaulte this question as fairly and in an as amicable way as possible and I ask that you answer it in the same spirit.

I know I won't change your rather warped world view in any way, but the facts are clear in this case: The police leadership tried to cover up their own failures that night. They did not inform the media and they apparently misinformed the politicians in the executive completely. It's not like they got the order to do so and if your conspiracy theories were true: How come that the media did report it despite the cops playing it down and uncovered the story?

Believing in some dark political power pulling all the strings in the background is a bit of paranoia... no, I cannot rule out that the Illuminati are behind it and for some reason decided to swamp Germany with raping Muslims. But I find it much more likely that the police bosses of cologne were simply incompetent and at the moment things went wrong instead of lead just stared in shock and see it all go down.

Firearm sales have increased in Switzerland, Austria and other European where it is allowed. I think laws are stricter in Germany.

Keep an eye on SIG stock prices for an indication. I know some gun manufacturer stock prices have been climbing.

On the under-reporting, lots of rumours along with admission by the police it is occurring.

Initial Köln police report on NYE was "another joyous celebration". They then had to retract and report the truth a few days later.

Agree with everything apart from the last paragraph. This wasn't simply a planned robbery, the number of sexual assaults and rape shows a sexual repression that can only come from those raised in another culture. Also, refugees wouldn't have been able to commit these crimes if there weren't so many there in the first place.

I'd also like to see some politicians resign for some of the crap they've spouted in the last week. If ever leaders were more out of touch with their voters...

The tune is changing in the German government. They are now openly talking about THE "cultural differences". I mean, this is stuff that some would attempt to close down here on EF. Good thing EF is not the Think Tank for the world.

But, as has been posted further up on this thread.

- the local media did report it
- the international media did report it.

So if the German national media were holding back, can we really blame police coverups?

I'm not saying the police didn't make mistakes on the ground and on the day.But it's rather unfair to push the whole thing onto them. Police chiefs in Germany have been saying since the whole crisis began that they were going to need more people and more funds and these calls have been largely ignored - because nobody in politics wanted to admit there was a problem looming.

Agreed - the cops on the ground aren't the ones to blame. The ones in charge of them are. If the city knew they could not police the area effectively, they should have taken steps to ensure these events couldn't have occurred. I

That being said...I am glad that the german police, despite being outnumbered and outgunned, were able to prevent the situation escalating into lives being lost. Dont get me wrong, its terrible what has happened, but the police (on the street) should be commended that the situation wasnt far, far worse.

I'm not recommending that to anyone at all. I'm simply pointing that out as a marking indicator.

Incidentally, I don't know if Sig Sauer stocks are traded publicly. What is the leading gun manufacturer that is traded publicly? Merely to watch how the world responds.

That smells like a stock twitter post, an the part of their PR group who wouldn't have known otherwise. cant really read anything sinister in to that.

PS, this is not really a time to offer investment advice, on the back of this. Start a new thread if you wish to discuss that in more depth.

You don't need to go onto the black market. You can buy and own a firearm legally in Germany if you jump through all the hoops and tick all the boxes. It would be interesting to watch for applications for permits. Are any statistics on this published?

No, no, you miss the point. Not offering any stock advice, nor to recommend how people react. Simply to track reality beyond the pundits.

Sex or robbery? Why not both...

Sexual harassment is the mean.
Robbery is the goal.
The two rapes (basically the number of rapes on a normal weekend in Hamburg) are due to rapists, not a domino effect of Merkel's large cleavage 2008. Google that if you're a straight man.

Why is sexual harassment the mean? This is where I have to admit that the cultural discussion is not totally idiotic. But it's not Arabian culture, it's mediterranean culture, and I put my awkward French cousins in the same pot as the Italian basic macho on Rimini beach and the other mediterranean men including Arab men on the loose in town on a normal day (See Paris and what women have to endure on some squares). I've seen that in the 90ies in Lyon, at the same time, in Hamburg with the other half of my family, there was no call on women with unwanted compliments publicly. Culturally, it is a north/south divide, but the frontier is not the water, it's internal European.

Assault is criminality, this is indeed not cultural. The means criminals operate with can be cultural to a certain extent.


P.S. Please open a new thread for Pegida.

__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.

Thanks for posting, I agree 80% with your post, with the following exceptions:

1) I wouldn't put too heavy blame on the German police. This type of incident hasn't happened in Germany in recent history (ie: 1,000+ men robbing and sexually molesting/raping women). If they have no experience in this, they probably weren't trained in how to deal with it. I assume they will do a "lessons learned" and be better prepared if/when this type of situation happens again.

2) Unfortunately, this type of this does happen more frequently in the Arab world, and the refugees/migrants from there do seem to be bringing it to Germany. Can you name the last time a gang of 1,000+ men were robbing/molesting/raping people in open areas in Europe? I can't. However a very similar incident happened in Egypt just a couple of years ago....

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/03/op...tahrir-square/

I'll be honest:
- 2 rapes on a new year night in a city the size of Cologne is unfortunately not that exceptional.
- if we know that 80 women have been robbed and that these robbers used groping them as a mean to distract them... well, the numbers easily add up to me.
- "shows a sexual repression that can only come from those raised in another culture." Really? These are young guys around 20 years old. They live in shelters far from any girls their age and in very tight living conditions. The closest young Germans come to that experience was the military service (which they currently don't have anymore). I can tell you that when I was that age and a large group of soldiers went clubbing did the bouncers have their hands full. I didn't see the moral high ground of Christian values on those occasions. Or our superior enlightened Western culture. And don't get me started on how American soldiers behaved on their day off... blaming it on the culture is rubbish in my eyes. Blaming it on their living condition and yes, on their sheer number is correct.

As long as they are stacked on top of each other in emergency shelters like sports halls will we have issues. The goal cannot be to have zero problems when you integrate a million young men. The point is to make sure that those events don't repeat themselves, that criminals get what they deserve and even more importantly the ones who did not actually do it but apparently not exactly helped the police: they need to learn what's ok and what not. I can easily accept that 1-2% of the refugees are criminals. We can deal with them. What I cannot accept is when the other 98% cover them based on some wrong sense of belonging. That's a typical problem with any form of immigration.