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  #281  
Old 09.05.2017, 21:29
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Merkel made an about turn on a previously stated policy point on the migrants.
She let large numbers into Germany, this angered the anti immigration types.

And when they arrived, a lot of things went wrong that could have been averted ahd the situation been better managed. Cologne for example. This angered both the anti immigration types and the pro immigration types.
and still are going wrong:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39855824
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Seven young migrants have gone on trial in Germany, over a Christmas day attack on a homeless man which could have killed him.
Six are charged with attempted murder, accused of setting fire to newspaper with which the man had covered himself.
The seventh is charged with failing to assist the Polish man, who was only saved by the actions of passers-by after his attackers fled.
The attack, which was captured on CCTV, shocked the country.
Six of the accused come from Syria, a seventh from Libya. They range between 16 and 21 in age.
They arrived in Germany between 2014 and 2016, some as unaccompanied minors, say German media reports.



...But he will be charged as an adult and will face at least three years behind bars if found guilty.
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  #282  
Old 09.05.2017, 23:58
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Can't help but noticing that the Polish man was sleeping on the streets, whereas the migrants were accomodated in government buildings...but whatever. Long live the United Europe, ya' know.
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  #283  
Old 10.05.2017, 09:21
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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I understand you have your issues with Merkel, I don't see why you have to offend the Germans just because your lot can't seem to vote for some competent politician.
Most Germans are living quite well right now, and certainly better than most Brits. I can see why they might not want to risk that.

Still, I am not happy with Merkel's shortsightedness.
Offending Germans is only my second favourite pass time after offending scousers. My German missus can confirm

Anyhow, I don't have a "lot" in Germany, I'm just an interested observer. And I stand by my comment, if Germany's short history shows us anything it's that they're both very obedient and very tolerant. Masochistically so. Up to a point.

If I was German I would have been very happy Merkel up until 2015. Strong economic performance, low unemployment, the EU heeding Germany's every wish. But now there's a need for change. The handling of the migrant crisis is just one facet.

Germany has some big problems on the horizon. Perhaps not in the next 5-10 years, but beyond that they will start running into difficulties. The first and largest issue is that for whatever reason they decided to stop having kids. This will eventually have its impact on the economy. Secondly, integration has failed, no better proof of this can be seen by the number of Turks that voted "Yes" in the recent Turkish constitutional referendum. This in a country with a free press, good education system and open internet.

Merkel has had a good run, but now it's time she be put out to grass. The problem is there's really no viable alternatives. The SPD and Schulz would be far worse. AfD are a shambolic one policy party. The Greens are a joke. There really is no one with fresh ideas stepping up to the plate. Which is why unless something drastic happens between now and September, Germany can look forward to four years of Merkel.

Last edited by Loz1983; 10.05.2017 at 10:00. Reason: typo
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  #284  
Old 10.05.2017, 09:36
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Merkel has had a good run, but now it's she be put out to grass. The problem is there's really no viable alternatives. The SPD and Schulz would be far worse. AfD are a shambolic one policy party. The Greens are a joke. There really is no one with fresh ideas stepping up to the plate. Which is why unless something drastic happens between now and September, Germany can look forward to four years of Merkel.
It means the Germans are not doing that bad after all. You do realise that everything you wrote is in her favour, no?

Maybe the demographic problem will be solved by the migrants, who knows. Of course that will practically change the country as it is now, but what are the options.
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Old 10.05.2017, 09:47
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Maybe the demographic problem will be solved by the migrants, who knows.
Which ones? Those who are solving it by burning other imigrants, who are sleeping on a bench?

Or maybe when they radicalize in prison in a couple of months? It is worrying that burning a sleeping homeless man is finally radical enough to be reported in press.

That group act they committed symbolizes a complete unwillingness to adapt to a new environment. Who teaches these kids? Teachers, priests, cultural anthropologists or they just have security personnel? What do city councils think about this? What emergency help is out there..

Markel's ideas are our ideas. We do not differ. Everybody wants to be a hero and a savior. We differ on implementation and minor details as time and volume ( I am being sarcastic). Consequences. Long term coping. So when one thinks it through...Merkel's priorities without a good back up implementation plan are completely theoretical. And that makes them wrong.
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  #286  
Old 10.05.2017, 09:58
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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"In Germany AfD is doing very well in the big cities"

Do you have a source for this?

Contrariwise

Hamburg 2015 AfD 6%
Bremen 2015 AfD 5%

Or take a look at this!

I think your link answers your own question


Mannheim, AfD, 18.2%
Pforzheim, AfD 25.2%
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  #287  
Old 10.05.2017, 10:36
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Markel's ideas are our ideas. We do not differ. Everybody wants to be a hero and a savior. We differ on implementation and minor details as time and volume ( I am being sarcastic). Consequences. Long term coping. So when one thinks it through...Merkel's priorities without a good back up implementation plan are completely theoretical. And that makes them wrong.
Merkel's ideas have been an absolute travesty for Europe - when future generations of North African migrants are burning the suburbs of German cities as has been proven in France then it will be too late.

The fact that she has gotten away with it, by pointing her finger at sensible policies and calling the people who suggest them Nazis is one of the most pernicious political strategies I have witnessed in my lifetime.

EDIT: The story of the burning of the homeless man - appeared on the BBC homepage early yesterday morning but dissappeared from the homepage in 3 hours... the pie story with the head of Qantas lasted 10. Jokeshop.
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  #288  
Old 10.05.2017, 10:43
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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The fact that she has gotten away with it, by pointing her finger at sensible policies and calling the people who suggest them Nazis is one of the most pernicious political strategies I have witnessed in my lifetime.
To be fair on Merkal, she hasn't really been pointing at many people and calling them Nazis.

That's more what the leftists are doing, including the leftists in her government such as Heiko Maas with his speeches about "it's not free speech if we disagree with it", or "there is no difference between speaking badly of people and setting fire to their houses". The most you can accuse Merkel of in this category is not putting her foot down and telling him to shut up.
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  #289  
Old 10.05.2017, 11:04
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Merkel's ideas have been an absolute travesty for Europe - when future generations of North African migrants are burning the suburbs of German cities as has been proven in France then it will be too late.

The fact that she has gotten away with it, by pointing her finger at sensible policies and calling the people who suggest them Nazis is one of the most pernicious political strategies I have witnessed in my lifetime.

EDIT: The story of the burning of the homeless man - appeared on the BBC homepage early yesterday morning but dissappeared from the homepage in 3 hours... the pie story with the head of Qantas lasted 10. Jokeshop.
"when future generations of North African migrants" To be fair to Merkel she said she would handle Syrian refugees but people from other countries would be sent home.

So the ones to blame for the North African migrants are the border countries who failed to process them properly.
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  #290  
Old 10.05.2017, 11:12
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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The first and largest issue is that for whatever reason they decided to stop having kids. This will eventually have its impact on the economy.
Germany (FRG+GDR combined) had a population of 68mln in 1950, 77 millions in 1970 vs 81 millions today. Even from 1880-1905 (the only reasonably long period with roughly unchanged country size) the population grew by just 1% annually.

A stagnant population is nothing new to Germany at all. If anything it's a long-standing fact.
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  #291  
Old 10.05.2017, 11:18
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Germany (FRG+GDR combined) had a population of 77 millions in 1970 vs 81 millions today. Even from 1880-1905 (the only reasonably long period with roughly unchanged country size) the population grew by just 1% annually.

A stagnant population is nothing new to Germany at all. If anything it's a long-standing fact.
Germany's population is forecast to drop by approximately 10 million over the next 50 years. Coupled with this is the aging population time bomb, which is the same across much of the Western world, however the effects will be felt hardest in countries with a low fertility rate such as Germany.
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  #292  
Old 10.05.2017, 11:26
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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"when future generations of North African migrants" To be fair to Merkel she said she would handle Syrian refugees but people from other countries would be sent home.

So the ones to blame for the North African migrants are the border countries who failed to process them properly.
And how many have been sent home ? I look forward to your usual diligent posting of sources.

The story of the German army member who sailed through their identification procedures and claimed asylum proves that she has failed to keep her word.

She also said she would punish those who assaulted women in Cologne , how did that turn out ?
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  #293  
Old 10.05.2017, 11:27
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Germany's population is forecast to drop by approximately 10 million over the next 50 years. Coupled with this is the aging population time bomb, which is the same across much of the Western world, however the effects will be felt hardest in countries with a low fertility rate such as Germany.
With the level of automation and life expectancy increases we are seeing now a falling population of highly skilled and peaceful workforce should be seen as a boon and not a curse.
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  #294  
Old 10.05.2017, 12:03
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Merkel made an about turn on a previously stated policy point on the migrants.
She let large numbers into Germany, this angered the anti immigration types.

And when they arrived, a lot of things went wrong that could have been averted ahd the situation been better managed. Cologne for example. This angered both the anti immigration types and the pro immigration types.

With many sports halls and public buildings being used for migrants, this is bringing normal life in smaller towns to a halt. This is angering people who don't have much of a stake either way on migration.

The SPD could easily have blamed all these failings on Merkel. Maybe being a coalition partner there is a limit to what you can say in straight talk and you have to tone things down. But that is the advanatge of bringing an outsider like Schultz in. He can have a go at the government because he's not in it.

But then they did bring in Schultz rather then somebody more competent. He is a wannabee left wing Trump imitator only without the charisma.
This does not translate to the stars being aligned and the such.
The economy is doing good => people are happy => people will vote for the same.
It's that simple.
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  #295  
Old 10.05.2017, 12:07
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Offending Germans is only my second favourite pass time after offending scousers. My German missus can confirm

Anyhow, I don't have a "lot" in Germany, I'm just an interested observer. And I stand by my comment, if Germany's short history shows us anything it's that they're both very obedient and very tolerant. Masochistically so. Up to a point.

If I was German I would have been very happy Merkel up until 2015. Strong economic performance, low unemployment, the EU heeding Germany's every wish. But now there's a need for change. The handling of the migrant crisis is just one facet.

Germany has some big problems on the horizon. Perhaps not in the next 5-10 years, but beyond that they will start running into difficulties. The first and largest issue is that for whatever reason they decided to stop having kids. This will eventually have its impact on the economy. Secondly, integration has failed, no better proof of this can be seen by the number of Turks that voted "Yes" in the recent Turkish constitutional referendum. This in a country with a free press, good education system and open internet.

Merkel has had a good run, but now it's time she be put out to grass. The problem is there's really no viable alternatives. The SPD and Schulz would be far worse. AfD are a shambolic one policy party. The Greens are a joke. There really is no one with fresh ideas stepping up to the plate. Which is why unless something drastic happens between now and September, Germany can look forward to four years of Merkel.
First of all, when I wrote "your lot" I did not mean in Germany, I meant your lot where you come from.

Second, I have already written that Germany is only doing good on the short term, so please don't lecture me about the risks down the road.
I have been saying the same things to people I know here, some people listen to me, others reject it on the basis of me being Greek hence I only care about forgiving the Greek debt (which actually I am against). The point is that most people care about as far as they can see, and as far as they can see Merkel is doing good.
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  #296  
Old 10.05.2017, 12:49
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Which ones? Those who are solving it by burning other imigrants, who are sleeping on a bench?

Or maybe when they radicalize in prison in a couple of months? It is worrying that burning a sleeping homeless man is finally radical enough to be reported in press.

That group act they committed symbolizes a complete unwillingness to adapt to a new environment. Who teaches these kids? Teachers, priests, cultural anthropologists or they just have security personnel? What do city councils think about this? What emergency help is out there..

Markel's ideas are our ideas. We do not differ. Everybody wants to be a hero and a savior. We differ on implementation and minor details as time and volume ( I am being sarcastic). Consequences. Long term coping. So when one thinks it through...Merkel's priorities without a good back up implementation plan are completely theoretical. And that makes them wrong.
As I said in a previous post, I wasn't among the ones who blindly accepted the whole refugee hype, not after what I've seen...I had many doubts even back then. Plus there are many children, youth and elderly who are literally struggling within the borders of Europe, while their governments are too busy to implement "change" and to please the powers that be...powers like Merkel.
I have some sentiments against EU. And for good reasons. But the refugees are here and I think they will be taken care somehow. Of course there will be non-integrated and non-integratable ever - cases, but if used wisely, this human resources capital could bring in something good.
As you said, the logistic part of the process is something Merkel didn't think it through. I wonder who will pay, one way or another, for her generosity. My country doesn't have many doctors anymore (one acquaintance who lived in Germany asked me whether we had any doctors left because he met only Romanian doctors there), or other human resources we busily provided for the West. I am sickened, sometimes. EU without reforming itself and starting to be fair with every nation will collapse.The sad part is that all of this is coming from someone who was and still is profoundly pro-Europe. I love Europe, I just hope that Europe will love all of us...equally.

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Old 10.05.2017, 13:14
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

Do you believe in Merkles, oooooooh you sexy thing. I can't listen to this song any more without thinking the lyrics are the title of this thread...

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  #298  
Old 10.05.2017, 13:29
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Germany's population is forecast to drop by approximately 10 million over the next 50 years. Coupled with this is the aging population time bomb, which is the same across much of the Western world, however the effects will be felt hardest in countries with a low fertility rate such as Germany.
Yes. That's the forecast, effectively the extension of current trends. It may hold or not.

The problem is nobody is even sure about the causes, the one thing that's clear is an inverse correlation with material wealth. So it's a bit difficult to work out a solution don't you think.

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  #299  
Old 10.05.2017, 13:31
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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As I said in a previous post, I wasn't among the ones who blindly accepted the whole refugee hype, not after what I've seen...I had many doubts even back then. Plus there are many children, youth and elderly who are literally struggling within the borders of Europe, while their governments are too busy to implement "change" and to please the powers that be...powers like Merkel.
I have some sentiments against EU. And for good reasons. But the refugees are here and I think they will be taken care somehow. Of course there will be non-integrated and non-integratable ever - cases, but if used wisely, this human resources capital could bring in something good.
As you said, the logistic part of the process is something Merkel didn't think it through. I wonder who will pay, one way or another, for her generosity. My country doesn't have many doctors anymore (one acquaintance who lived in Germany asked me whether we had any doctors left because he met only Romanian doctors there), or other human resources we busily provided for the West. I am sickened, sometimes. EU without reforming itself and starting to be fair with every nation will collapse.
I know you hold these ideas, it was not personal at all. I read your stuff I am debating with ideas, I am not shooting a messenger.

What I think is - Merkel and others count on a homogenous group that wants to be here, appreciates it and holds values native to our region. Merkel, imho, does not count on powers within those groups, that actively and aggressively go against integration and respecting the values that make cohabitation mutually possible, even. To imply that it is EU's and our moral duty to have that opinion, is incredibly arrogant. Especially if you are counting on offloading part of this plan on other sovereign territories (where refugees even do not want to go, because they cannot cash in their status enough). It sounds crass...but as I said, priorities might be different. Vysegrad will probably figure something out. Munich deception last century is still pretty fresh.
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Old 10.05.2017, 13:44
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Visegrad will probably figure something out. Munich deception last century is still pretty fresh.
I don't know if Visegrad is planning an exit strategy behind closed doors, but publically they are saying quite the opposite, and I think we can believe them as they do benefit from the EU.

The Visegrad countries believe that the others will at some point come around to their point of view.

How and when and by what mechanism that change is supposed to happen isn't clear to me.

And you're right, they haven't forgotten the Munich betrayal (although if i recall my history correctly, Poland and Hungary both initially benefitted from the carve-up of Czechosolvakia, so it's all less black and white than we like to assume)
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