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  #361  
Old 02.08.2017, 21:03
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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I don't think this is going anywhere. But the Polish government are apparently considering demanding Germany pay them reparations for WW2.
Germany is doling out wads of cash to African/ME migrants, bailing out Greece's government every couple of years...so yea, why shouldn't Poland get in on the Gravy Train? I mean Germany is still suffering from War Guilt, so Poland has a good chance, I'd say.

This move could also be financed by Russia to sew more division between EU countries, or direct East EU countries back into Russia's sphere of influence, which would be a shrewd move by them as well.
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  #362  
Old 03.08.2017, 00:41
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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I think the line the present Polish government are towing is that the Ostverträge were agreements between Germany and the then Soviet-controlled puppet government and thus have no validity.
Poland accepted Germany as it is today when it joined the EU 12 yrs ago, NATO, Partnership for Peace, etc. There probably are many more mulitnational treaties and agreements concluded over the last 25 years so it's hard to see what Poland would base such a position on.
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  #363  
Old 03.08.2017, 10:54
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Germany is doling out wads of cash to African/ME migrants, bailing out Greece's government every couple of years...so yea, why shouldn't Poland get in on the Gravy Train? I mean Germany is still suffering from War Guilt, so Poland has a good chance, I'd say.
In principle, yes, but in practice no. I don' think Poland presently ranks very high among the countries your average German has a guilt complex over. Coverage of Poland in the German press is predominantly negative and the present government is painted as authoritarian and problematic (to avoid using more inflammatory words). So if Poland starts pulling those strings and saying Germany still owes it something, I don't think the average German is going to get up and say, hey, they're right, let's start putting Merkel under pressure to do something.

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This move could also be financed by Russia to sew more division between EU countries, or direct East EU countries back into Russia's sphere of influence, which would be a shrewd move by them as well.
From what I've heard there is very little sympathy in Poland for Russia these days. This is in contrast to say, Hungary, where Russia has had some success in making up for its past errors, and although maybe not universally popular, is no longer as despised as it once was. In Poland not.

Right now there is a move underway by some of the crazier elements in the Polish government to remove and ban Russian war monuments. The discussion is comparable maybe to what's happenening to the Confedrate monuments in the USA. I don't know if this is just chest beating and hot air or whether anything will happen. But Russia is absolutely furious and doing everything it can to save them.
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  #364  
Old 03.08.2017, 12:21
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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In principle, yes, but in practice no. I don' think Poland presently ranks very high among the countries your average German has a guilt complex over.
True, for some reason Germany has more compassion for Africans/Arabs than for people of Eastern EU, who's lands were actually decimated by WW2 and the ensuing ~50 years of occupation. Even now as Russia again has become a threat to E.Europe, Germany does very little to help them, it's mainly the US who is leading there.

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Right now there is a move underway by some of the crazier elements in the Polish government to remove and ban Russian war monuments. The discussion is comparable maybe to what's happenening to the Confedrate monuments in the USA. I don't know if this is just chest beating and hot air or whether anything will happen. But Russia is absolutely furious and doing everything it can to save them.
Yes, I remember in 2007 when Estonia relocated a Soviet monument, Russia completely freaked out, launched cyber attacks on a national level, started riots, etc. ...I would love Poland to knock some down and watch Russia throw a tantrum again
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  #365  
Old 03.08.2017, 13:51
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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I would love Poland to knock some down and watch Russia throw a tantrum again
that would be fun these days after the recent sanctions
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  #366  
Old 05.08.2017, 00:00
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

The head of the coalition of Social Democrats (SPD) and Greens that runs the German state of Lower Saxony called for new elections on Friday after a deputy quit the Greens party, costing the alliance its one-seat majority.

The defection marks the latest in a succession of setbacks for the SPD as it prepares to contest a federal election on Sept. 24 in which Chancellor Angela Merkel is seeking a fourth term.

The departure of Elke Twesten to Merkel's Christian Democrats (CDU) sparked anger among leaders of the SPD, which has already ceded power to the conservatives twice this year in state elections in Schleswig-Holstein and North Rhine-Westphalia.
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  #367  
Old 05.08.2017, 04:28
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

Personally, I respectfully disagree with Poland on this issue. Not because I don't think that they suffered enough during World War II, but simply because I really don't like the idea of this HUGE can of worms getting reopened.
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  #368  
Old 05.08.2017, 10:13
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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True, for some reason Germany has more compassion for Africans/Arabs than for people of Eastern EU, who's lands were actually decimated by WW2 and the ensuing ~50 years of occupation. Even now as Russia again has become a threat to E.Europe, Germany does very little to help them, it's mainly the US who is leading there.


Yes, I remember in 2007 when Estonia relocated a Soviet monument, Russia completely freaked out, launched cyber attacks on a national level, started riots, etc. ...I would love Poland to knock some down and watch Russia throw a tantrum again
Well, Russia does seem to throw a tantrum through vice-president Rogozin these days, not re. Poland but re. Romania and Moldova. He was on some interdictions list of EU and NATO and some fools back home have acted upon it. We should have known better.
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  #369  
Old 05.08.2017, 13:25
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Well, Russia does seem to throw a tantrum through vice-president Rogozin these days, not re. Poland but re. Romania and Moldova. He was on some interdictions list of EU and NATO and some fools back home have acted upon it. We should have known better.
With all respect, I think Romania, on account of its geopolitical situation, should be seeking to get on at least moderately well with all the superpowers, and not one sidedly being subservient to one side, even if they are within NATO. They are being used as a play ball and there is very little on it for them. I think the Romanian government would do well to stand up for its own country's interests a bit more.
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  #370  
Old 05.08.2017, 13:41
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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True, for some reason Germany has more compassion for Africans/Arabs than for people of Eastern EU, who's lands were actually decimated by WW2 and the ensuing ~50 years of occupation. Even now as Russia again has become a threat to E.Europe, Germany does very little to help them, it's mainly the US who is leading there.


Yes, I remember in 2007 when Estonia relocated a Soviet monument, Russia completely freaked out, launched cyber attacks on a national level, started riots, etc. ...I would love Poland to knock some down and watch Russia throw a tantrum again
I cannot believe how long it took Poland to finally get to this point.

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Personally, I respectfully disagree with Poland on this issue. Not because I don't think that they suffered enough during World War II, but simply because I really don't like the idea of this HUGE can of worms getting reopened.
Why? It was put under the carpet long enough. I think it is a fab idea to make Merkel think a bit.

There are plenty of cans of worms that will not go away despite some parties wishing for it.
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  #371  
Old 05.08.2017, 14:10
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

Poland receives a net 13+ billions every year from the EU, to which Germany is a major contributor.
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  #372  
Old 05.08.2017, 16:49
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

It's not the first time this topic has been brought up by Poland and I don't think it's the last.

The traction this type of ideas is get is generally a barometer for how well Germany is viewed in Poland. Right now they're not doing too well.
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  #373  
Old 05.08.2017, 21:54
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Why? It was put under the carpet long enough. I think it is a fab idea to make Merkel think a bit.

There are plenty of cans of worms that will not go away despite some parties wishing for it.
This.

Also. In the past, Germany believed it could solve all problems by writing big enough cheques.

That was a bit dishonest, but at least money, when there's enough of it, makes people shut up.

Or ask for more, depending on the circumstances.

But as long as forking out a bit more stil worked, that's what Germany did.

To some extent the peace in post war Europe was maintained by the balance German cheques books and everybody else's greed. That worked as far as peace was concerned, but it was an asymmetric sort of peace, not based on mutual respect but based on shut up and take this money.

Now that Germany has decided it wants to spend its money buying a different kind of friends, it's got to think up another way of dealing with legitimate skeletons in its closet.

One easy way might be to show people some respect and not call them names or criticise them when they're legitimately taking care of their own interests. You know, to treat them as equals rather than vassals who do as they are bidden because they're getting money.

But Merkel seems to think the solution is to flap her fingers in her ears and have a hissy fit until they agree to do everything her way. Let's see how long that works.
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  #374  
Old 05.08.2017, 22:07
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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“It seems to me like a prelude to an announcement that Poland does not need the European Union. I am afraid we are closer than further to that moment," Tusk told reporters.
https://www.rferl.org/a/tusk-poland-.../28658343.html

Poland is on a roll I would actually like to see them lead E.Europe and create their own Union (Eastern European Union?) The whole former East bloc doesn't seem to fit with Liberal West EU, and definitely doesn't want to return to Russian rule either...creating a new Eastern bloc/union would make sense to me...maybe even inevitable?
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  #375  
Old 05.08.2017, 22:18
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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https://www.rferl.org/a/tusk-poland-.../28658343.html

Poland is on a roll I would actually like to see them lead E.Europe and create their own Union (Eastern European Union?) The whole former East bloc doesn't seem to fit with Liberal West EU, and definitely doesn't want to return to Russian rule either...creating a new Eastern bloc/union would make sense to me...maybe even inevitable?
As a last resort, maybe they will. But I think right now they want to convince the rest of the Eu of their PoV , or at least to be tolerant of it and allow space for differences. Of course being able to threaten total exit helps leverage that.
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Old 05.08.2017, 22:20
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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https://www.rferl.org/a/tusk-poland-.../28658343.html

Poland is on a roll I would actually like to see them lead E.Europe and create their own Union (Eastern European Union?) The whole former East bloc doesn't seem to fit with Liberal West EU, and definitely doesn't want to return to Russian rule either...creating a new Eastern bloc/union would make sense to me...maybe even inevitable?
Sounds OK but who pays?
As Maggie Thatcher said "Socialism is fine until they run out of other people's money."
To paraphrase, blocs/unions are fine but who pays?
The only reason Russia did not completely collapse after the Soviet Union failed was due to their huge natural resources.

If the West and the US (despite Trump) manage to eventually provide most of their energy requirements from renewable sources then Russia will also face difficult times
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Old 05.08.2017, 22:46
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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https://www.rferl.org/a/tusk-poland-.../28658343.html

Poland is on a roll I would actually like to see them lead E.Europe and create their own Union (Eastern European Union?) The whole former East bloc doesn't seem to fit with Liberal West EU, and definitely doesn't want to return to Russian rule either...creating a new Eastern bloc/union would make sense to me...maybe even inevitable?
A political union and that might be it. V4. There are historically-cultural differences (Poland being so catholic and CZ being the most atheist in the world) that might split any other reason for unity, but we might be bound by desire to not be used as an offloading place for Merkel's megalomaniac plans.
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  #378  
Old 05.08.2017, 22:53
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

Poland is NOT really in a right-turn (except for some anti-refugee rhetorics, but at the same time admitting hundred of thousands of workers from Ukraine) and leaving EU is NOT an option politically (neither the ruling coalition nor the society wants it).
German political parties found their NGOs which in turn were certainly founding many think tanks in Poland, and even Tusk party directly (certainly years ago, admitted by two co-founders). (not that the other aren't supported by any outside influence). While probably the now-ruling party in substance is not much better, previous guys really were stupid enough to let corrupt their highest echelons, then to let it spill it through some media. The fact that Merkel sill supports Tusk is like G. Schroeder employed by Russians.

The fact that Soviet monuments are still standing in Poland tells a lot about the half-heartedly done "change", or how hard it is to depose the old guard and all its influence and benefactors.
If someone doesn't understand that essentially Soviets were as evil as Germans in 1939-45 and then in their terror until at least Stalin's death, then I can only recommend catching up on history. That's why these monuments must be erased, and only the Red Army cemeteries left maintained, as they are now.
The only ones left should be those in Germany and Austria.
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  #379  
Old 05.08.2017, 23:29
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Poland is NOT really in a right-turn (except for some anti-refugee rhetorics, but at the same time admitting hundred of thousands of workers from Ukraine) and leaving EU is NOT an option politically (neither the ruling coalition nor the society wants it).
A fact which hardly happened at all according to the BBC and others... Poland isn't and wasn't anti-refugee at all - but the fact that it had genuine concerns - borne out by the turmoil , terrorism and crime in the West and the absolute absence of that in Poland - has been glossed over in a way old Joe Goebbels would be proud of.
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Old 07.08.2017, 11:06
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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The fact that Soviet monuments are still standing in Poland tells a lot about the half-heartedly done "change", or how hard it is to depose the old guard and all its influence and benefactors.
I always puit it down to Poland's attitude to their history. I always had the impression Poles didn't overly grovel about the past but preferred to forgive and forget and look to the future. I thus assumed the monuments were still there because people thought it either a waste of time or pedantic petulance to do anything about them.
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