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  #781  
Old 17.03.2018, 22:51
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Seems to me you're the one negating facts here. Did you bother reading Marton's link?
I don't think anyone here bothers reading Marton's links
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  #782  
Old 17.03.2018, 23:10
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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I don't think anyone here bothers reading Marton's links

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  #783  
Old 18.03.2018, 20:08
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

Seehofer (German interior minister) criticises EU for patronizing Eastern members on migrants.

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Seehofer criticized the EU for its inability to control its external borders and for what he called a “moralizing” tone toward eastern European states who have refused to take in asylum seekers under an EU-wide quota system.

Such an attitude was “counter-productive,” Seehofer said, urging the EU to stop making decisions “over the heads” of member states.

“The EU commission is often patronizing,” he told the newspaper. “We need to put more energy into dialogue on the distribution of refugees. If we keep negotiating patiently, a majority of countries will support (it).”

Other countries could contribute in other ways, perhaps by sending more personnel to the EU borders, or by contributing more for joint border patrols, he said.
How about just put it to the people in a vote ?? Of course that would terrify the likes of Merkel & Co.
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Old 18.03.2018, 20:11
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Seehofer (German interior minister) criticises EU for patronizing Eastern members on migrants.



How about just put it to the people in a vote ?? Of course that would terrify the likes of Merkel & Co.


I am sure people would happily vote for better control of EU external borders, build the wall!
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  #785  
Old 18.03.2018, 20:34
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

I think she is one of the last great politicians. She does her work for the greater to her country and Europe. Yes like everyone she’s made mistakes but she is the glue keeping Europe together.
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  #786  
Old 19.03.2018, 13:12
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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I think she is one of the last great politicians. She does her work for the greater to her country and Europe. Yes like everyone she’s made mistakes but she is the glue keeping Europe together.
...yes, just like Stalin. He did everything for the good of the people, and was the glue that kept the USSR together. Once the "populist" Gorbachev came in and asked if the member countries really wanted to stay in or not, well, we all know what happened then...
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Old 19.03.2018, 13:17
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Yes like everyone she’s made mistakes but she is the glue keeping Europe together.
Why do you think that?

Never in the history of the EU has there been so much disagreement as there is now. Hardly the sign of a leader who skillfully brings people together and creates harmony out of strife.
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  #788  
Old 19.03.2018, 13:53
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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...yes, just like Stalin. He did everything for the good of the people, and was the glue that kept the USSR together. Once the "populist" Gorbachev came in and asked if the member countries really wanted to stay in or not, well, we all know what happened then...
Well I think she is nothing like that at all! I can't believe you could compare her to Stalin.
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  #789  
Old 19.03.2018, 15:36
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Well I think she is nothing like that at all! I can't believe you could compare her to Stalin.
She is forming a Union which strips powers/sovereignty from the smaller states into a centralized authority, she likes Marxist ideas like for equality of outcome for all, she is changing population structures via "forced resettlement" (see refugees) against the will of the local populations...there's alot of similarities...except ok, maybe Merkel's moustache is a little smaller...
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Old 20.03.2018, 10:33
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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I think she is one of the last great politicians. She does her work for the greater to her country and Europe. Yes like everyone she’s made mistakes but she is the glue keeping Europe together.
Merkel pretty much created the far-right in Germany and bolstered other far-right parties throughout Europe.
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  #791  
Old 20.03.2018, 10:41
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Merkel pretty much created the far-right in Germany and bolstered other far-right parties throughout Europe.
That's IMO a (gross) misrepresentation.
The voters, the sentiments were always there.
All what was needed was a catalytic event.

What happened in 2015 was a culmination of various events in large parts of the Arab world that were set in motion sometimes very long ago (and sometimes not so long ago) either actively (Lybia) or passively by her and her European partners. These events resulted in a large, uncontrolled migration of people towards core Europe.
Europe had dragged its feet on this problem for a very, very long time and now has been caught up.
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  #792  
Old 20.03.2018, 11:02
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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That's IMO a (gross) misrepresentation.
The voters, the sentiments were always there.
All what was needed was a catalytic event.

What happened in 2015 was a culmination of various events in large parts of the Arab world that were set in motion sometimes very long ago (and sometimes not so long ago) either actively (Lybia) or passively by her and her European partners. These events resulted in a large, uncontrolled migration of people towards core Europe.
Europe had dragged its feet on this problem for a very, very long time and now has been caught up.
And in the past, what typically happened in such situations was that conservative governments gnashed their teeth and talked about being tough and making things difficult for them, but still let in a number of migrants through the back door. Like the SVP does all the time for example. In other words, you please the voters but still do the humanitarian thing.

Merkel, by actively distancing herslef from that sort of talk, created a political vacuum on the right. By calling out and crtiticiszing and threatening governments who were doing precisely that, she also created a perfect narrative that allowed the far right to grow in those countries too, or pushed existing governments further to the right.
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  #793  
Old 20.03.2018, 13:11
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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And in the past, what typically happened in such situations was that conservative governments gnashed their teeth and talked about being tough and making things difficult for them, but still let in a number of migrants through the back door. Like the SVP does all the time for example. In other words, you please the voters but still do the humanitarian thing.
That works when the "problem" is far away.
If it's at your doorsteps (literally), you can't stall anymore.
And I think we can agree that Merkel is the Master of Stalling?
If even she felt she couldn't wait it out....


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Merkel, by actively distancing herslef from that sort of talk, created a political vacuum on the right. By calling out and crtiticiszing and threatening governments who were doing precisely that, she also created a perfect narrative that allowed the far right to grow in those countries too, or pushed existing governments further to the right.
I believe that she's considering these far-right movements to be temporary.
And at least in my opinion, they are maybe not temporary but not sustainable.

That said, due to cost-cuts etc., the German authorities were and still are woefully underequipped, underprepared and underfunded for the influx of people.
That hasn't really changed.
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  #794  
Old 20.03.2018, 13:37
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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That works when the "problem" is far away.
If it's at your doorsteps (literally), you can't stall anymore.
And I think we can agree that Merkel is the Master of Stalling?
If even she felt she couldn't wait it out....
But we were talking about in what way she caused or faciliatted the rise of the far right. There are ways that she could have imaginatevely handled the same situation without this totally building the far right.

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I believe that she's considering these far-right movements to be temporary.
And at least in my opinion, they are maybe not temporary but not sustainable.
Temporary or not sustainable in the same way that even the EU is temporary or not sustainable, at least in its present form. If the sh#t hits the fan, the far right will no doubt be in the middle of it and thriving on it, but that doesn't absolve her of her responsibility in having built them up.

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That said, due to cost-cuts etc., the German authorities were and still are woefully underequipped, underprepared and underfunded for the influx of people.
That hasn't really changed.
Which might reinforce the argument that she didn't actually have a plan but is trying to wing it as things develop.
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  #795  
Old 20.03.2018, 13:42
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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That's IMO a (gross) misrepresentation.
The voters, the sentiments were always there.
All what was needed was a catalytic event.
Merkel welcoming everyone was indeed a catalytic event. She flipped the migration policy on it's head. You think there wouldn't be any blow-back from that? You think that all Germans shared the Wilkommenskulture spirit? (..and why is nobody really using that word anymore? )

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What happened in 2015 was a culmination of various events in large parts of the Arab world that were set in motion sometimes very long ago (and sometimes not so long ago) either actively (Lybia) or passively by her and her European partners. These events resulted in a large, uncontrolled migration of people towards core Europe.
Europe had dragged its feet on this problem for a very, very long time and now has been caught up.
The Middle East has always had war and problems. The catalytic event was Merkel publicly saying "come on over to us", then suddenly everyone saw an opening and took it. Keep in mind how many are coming from African countries, and countries that are not at war, eg. Eritria, Morocco, etc. Most are not granted asylum, but stay anyway...

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That said, due to cost-cuts etc., the German authorities were and still are woefully underequipped, underprepared and underfunded for the influx of people.
That hasn't really changed.
Merkel opened her mouth and welcomed everybody, but had no plan how to accommodate them. Oops. So she devised a "refugee quota" plan to distribute them to other EU countries. Haha, brilliant. Except EU member states don't want that. So she has to threaten them. Haha, brilliant again. But even when they are distributed to other countries, they usually leave for Germany anyway (of Estonia's "quota refugees" half have already left for Germany).
...and you are surprised that right-wing parties are growing in EU? It's the natural reaction. As pointed out already, Merkel created them.
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Old 20.03.2018, 15:13
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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That works when the "problem" is far away.
If it's at your doorsteps (literally), you can't stall anymore.
And I think we can agree that Merkel is the Master of Stalling?
If even she felt she couldn't wait it out....

I believe that she's considering these far-right movements to be temporary.
And at least in my opinion, they are maybe not temporary but not sustainable.

That said, due to cost-cuts etc., the German authorities were and still are woefully underequipped, underprepared and underfunded for the influx of people.
That hasn't really changed.
I agree with "not sustainable", usually these far-right movements break into factions which slowly collapse or destroy each other.

Frauke Petry AfD resigned the day after the 24th Sept. election to set up a new party and twelve other AfDers resigned in the following two weeks,
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  #797  
Old 20.03.2018, 15:31
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

I'm not surprised.

As I said, the "welcoming" of the refugees was not really the problem. That was just a single facet of a complex situation.

The problem was letting it actually come to the point by supporting dictatorships in the Middle East for decades, and then removing that support in hope of a democratic revolution but creating a power-vacuum instead that lead to civil war.

For this very reason, Erdogan knows that he can now do what he wants.
He could probably eat roasted Kurdish kids for breakfast and they'd still invite him for dinner. All because he can keep his country together and the refugees at bay.
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  #798  
Old 20.03.2018, 15:40
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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I agree with "not sustainable", usually these far-right movements break into factions which slowly collapse or destroy each other.

Frauke Petry AfD resigned the day after the 24th Sept. election to set up a new party and twelve other AfDers resigned in the following two weeks,

AfD has actually raised a few important questions and pointed out some interesting (often uncomfortable facts - but most of that gets buried in racial slurs and self-created scandals by senior members at the extreme right.

Most of the intelligent people (those that joined the party because of the founder - who has ousted before the elections) have long left the party and it's IMO on a good way to end up as the cesspool of intrigues and self-laceration that most "alternative" parties (that have at some point existed throughout the whole history of Germany) have become over time.
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  #799  
Old 20.03.2018, 16:07
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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AfD has actually raised a few important questions and pointed out some interesting (often uncomfortable facts - but most of that gets buried in racial slurs and self-created scandals by senior members at the extreme right.
Or maybe it's just the press who are on a mision to make them look as bad as possible and will dig in people's past and quote stuff out of context to create scandals where there aren't any.

I'm sure if you went at any political party with that level of malice that you would find similar stuff.

The German press isn't even pretending to be neutral any more when it comes to the AfD. That means you need to filter everything the press says about them with that in mind.
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Old 20.03.2018, 16:55
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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AfD has actually raised a few important questions and pointed out some interesting (often uncomfortable facts - but most of that gets buried in racial slurs and self-created scandals by senior members at the extreme right.

Most of the intelligent people (those that joined the party because of the founder - who has ousted before the elections) have long left the party and it's IMO on a good way to end up as the cesspool of intrigues and self-laceration that most "alternative" parties (that have at some point existed throughout the whole history of Germany) have become over time.
This is true.

The far-right parties in Germany and most of EU are not as well developed and financed as the far-Left parties are. There are many "NGO"'s that the far-Left hide behind, and get financing like the Soros Foundation, so they can do things like run boats by the African coast to pick up "refugees". The also left has their "muscle" ANTIFA black-shirts who can go out and smash things up. And of course the Left-leaning press gives the narrative these are all "good" things, because like, well, they are saving people and smashing Fascists, right? But forgetting to ask the questions like, is unlimited migration into EU sustainable? Who exactly are the "Fascists" that ANTIFA is fighting against, and is violence or dialogue the solution? Etc..

So yes, the far Right is not as organized or as well financed and supported by the press as the far Left is. But with more of these kind of parties getting voted in, they are getting a voice that will have to be heard. Let's see what happens.
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