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  #1261  
Old 29.10.2018, 16:46
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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It's good for the economy but as we could see in other parts - e.g. UK it puts a lot of pressure on social services i.e. health care, education etc. so there are always downsides to mass immigration. It has its benefits but it always comes with some (social) costs and not everyone, I suppose, is so keen to welcome this phenomenon. Far right is taking these aspects and is debating them hysterically as nauseam and there you go - their popularity is growing. In the end if there's no balance on each side everything could backfire some day.
Without mass immigration the future of Germany, and all countries with declining birth rates, will be one of ever more pensioners freezing to death in Winter and starving to death all year around.
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  #1262  
Old 29.10.2018, 16:49
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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or to put it more simply.

There is more to life than money.
Trite saying.

Until you do not have enough money for fuel and food and then life becomes a struggle for survival.
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  #1263  
Old 29.10.2018, 16:50
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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5 years ago there were no gang rapes in Freiburg. 10 years ago neither.
The chance of a rape (or a gang rape) to not be reported has been going down steadily - and not fast enough if you want my opinion.
The fact that no gang rape was reported 10 years ago does not mean that no gang rapes happened.
In the past most women would be too ashamed to even report it, especially if the rapists were the sons of prominent society members instead of pathetic refugees.
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Old 29.10.2018, 16:53
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Helmut Kohl? All I remember of him was a bumper sticker I saw that said "sex, drugs and Helmut Kohl"
He was a colective hate figure for the German left, and also the butt of very many jokes, which sadly don't translate very well for the most part. He was typically potrayed as being somewhat dim witted. A picture that was readily supported by his rustic and very obvious Palatian accent, his lack of finesse, and his tendency, espcially when speaking off the cuff, to explain the obvious, to ramble and to evade the actual question.

Politically his style was coloured by his bonhommerie and chuminess and, especially in foreign polcy, to solve problems by throwing money at them.

One can question whether that was wise or sustainable, but it did help unify and bring together Europe in a way that no leader achieved before him, a legacy that Merkel seems very keen on reversing.
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  #1265  
Old 29.10.2018, 16:58
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Two week ago a girl was gang raped by migrants just across the border in Freiburg. 5 years ago this would have been unheard of, now people are barely surprised. There's your mess.
Terrible things happen everywhere, actually one of the gang was German born.

How about German mother jailed for prostituting young son online.

I expect you will claim she was influenced by migrants
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Old 29.10.2018, 16:58
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Trite saying.

Until you do not have enough money for fuel and food and then life becomes a struggle for survival.
So in other words, you believe that before 2015 Germany was a failing economy and poverty was everywhere, and it was only the refugees that turned that around?

I somehow remember a different Germany than you do.

But each unto his own.
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Old 29.10.2018, 17:22
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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So in other words, you believe that before 2015 Germany was a failing economy and poverty was everywhere, and it was only the refugees that turned that around?

I somehow remember a different Germany than you do.

But each unto his own.
A perfect example

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/...rawman-Fallacy
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Old 29.10.2018, 19:43
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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So in other words, you believe that before 2015 Germany was a failing economy and poverty was everywhere, and it was only the refugees that turned that around?

I somehow remember a different Germany than you do.

But each unto his own.
My post was about the future and your post is about the past.

No I do not believe " 2015 Germany was a failing economy and poverty was everywhere".

I will try to post this as simply as I can.

1. Germany has a falling birth rate.
2. The consequence is there will be ever fewer workers paying taxes to the Government and ever more pensioners being paid pensions by the Government
3. So the Government will have a declining income and increasing fiscal liabilities.
4. The alternatives available to the Government are to increase their tax income by bringing in workers from outside Germany or to reduce their liabilities by reducing pension payments. I have ruled out euthanasia as an alternative.
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  #1269  
Old 29.10.2018, 20:12
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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My post was about the future and your post is about the past.

No I do not believe " 2015 Germany was a failing economy and poverty was everywhere".

I will try to post this as simply as I can.

1. Germany has a falling birth rate.
2. The consequence is there will be ever fewer workers paying taxes to the Government and ever more pensioners being paid pensions by the Government
3. So the Government will have a declining income and increasing fiscal liabilities.
4. The alternatives available to the Government are to increase their tax income by bringing in workers from outside Germany or to reduce their liabilities by reducing pension payments. I have ruled out euthanasia as an alternative.
bad idea. parts of Germany are still a low-wage country. better skill that up instead of importing more unskilled workers. I think that country is making catastrophical long-term decisions in the past years.
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Old 29.10.2018, 21:01
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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bad idea. parts of Germany are still a low-wage country. better skill that up instead of importing more unskilled workers. I think that country is making catastrophical long-term decisions in the past years.
Skill up workers in areas where there are no skilled work opportunities is a good idea? As an English politician said a long time ago -
Norman Tebbit: 'my father got on his bike to look for a job'.

Importing unskilled workers is a bad idea which is why Germany avoids doing that; the new German skilled workers immigration law.
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  #1271  
Old 29.10.2018, 21:09
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

Bringing in the RIGHT immigrants is key. And something that is urgently needed indeed.

Bringing in masses of badly (if at all) educated freeloaders will destroy a country. Especially if they're 90% male.

Sure, some of them actually will work, and eventually, after a long while, bring in a positive yield. But most won't. Check how many of those will actually eventually work. And I mean real work, that eventually nets the state money.

Make it like Australia, or Canada if you like. Immigrants who bring skills we need are welcome, others aren't. Plus take in some REAL refugees. But in managable numbers.

Not like Merkel who opened the borders for millions. Well. They were the end of her political career, pretty much straight forward. Apparently, Germans in large numbers don't like insane politics.

What Europe really needs - not just Germany, but the whole continent - would be a sane central oriented party. That is liberal in the sense that work should bring benefits, and that those on social benefits need to do something to give the society that supports them something back (like, having them work as civil workers to increase the quality in elderly homes) - that also pushs them harder to find actual work. Plus, actually making a difference between someone having worked for 30 years, and lost his job at 57, and a young guy who never found work to be "attractive" and keeps being lazy.

Right now, the 26 year old, permanently stoned guy would get the very same social benefits as the 57 year old one. Is that fair? I don't think so.. is it reality in Switzerland? Yes, it is!

I don't want a "Swiss first", or "Europe first" politics. I want a "sanity first" politics.

It's EITHER open border OR social benefits for everyone. There are very good reasons why China, for example, doesn't allow it's population to (completely) free fload around. Compared with countries like Brazil, India etc they managed to keep their country (mostly) slum free. While actually making workers wages rising rather fast, since companies couldn't get unlimited cheap-cheap workers (and eventually pushing them to fight over the work force, by improving conditions etc.)

Europe can't allow free immigration. Unless it wants to destroy itself. It needs to adapt the Australian (or slightly changed) model.

Want a job in Europe?

Go to your local EU-job-centre, show you got skills we need, and get your flight sponsored.

We need:
-Nurses, dentists, old age caretakers..

Guess what, similar systems are up and running in the Phillipines, Thailand etc. - learn the language of the country you want to go, learn some skills (and certificates), then get approved.

Not that hard for people who are looking to improve their career, and are willing to give hard work for it.

Europe needs to stop failing for freeloaders and instead attracting those immigrants it actually needs.

And it does need neither right or left wing nutjobs for that. But a strong, sane central party.

Which Europe, at the moment, completely lacks in all it's larger countries at least.
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  #1272  
Old 29.10.2018, 21:13
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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I will try to post this as simply as I can.

1. Germany has a falling birth rate.
2. The consequence is there will be ever fewer workers paying taxes to the Government and ever more pensioners being paid pensions by the Government
3. So the Government will have a declining income and increasing fiscal liabilities.
4. The alternatives available to the Government are to increase their tax income by bringing in workers from outside Germany or to reduce their liabilities by reducing pension payments. I have ruled out euthanasia as an alternative.
Simple solution (if this is true).

Drive home the point by bringing down retirement age and raising pensions.

Generously. Here and now.

People will feel that immediately and rush forward to support more of the same type of immigration.
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  #1273  
Old 29.10.2018, 22:35
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Kohl was voted out of office because he was viewed as being unable to achieve anything.
Orchestrating Germany's reunion was indeed a trifle thing, nothing that will have consequences for many generations to come.
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Old 30.10.2018, 06:37
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Health care in Germany has not got any significant pressure from the inflow of immigrants and refugees. The reason is that we are all paying a % of our salary for healthcare and the government cannot touch that money as it goes to independent health insurance organizations. More people paying into the system => more money for the system.
Don't try to generalize whatever bs comes from the UK, where the government decided to reduce funding for NHS in order to subsidize crap like tax cuts for the rich. In the UK the Healthcare system does not have its own funding, so the government can decide to increase or decrease funding. In Germany it is completely separate from taxation.

Education somehow yes, if you have kids, it might be tough to get them in pre-school (not in a school though). This only affects people with kids at pre-school age, so not really a game changer in politics.
OK, I have to clarify my post because I see you're easy to stir up.

I don't try to generalise any BS that is coming from there, but it is a plausible situation that could become true. Of course, part of the immigrants in the UK work for that NHS too (ironically, and it's not even mentioned), but that's a different story and in the minds of say older people - the perception is totally different.

Things are getting worse for them and they associate it with immigrants, refugees ...Lewton, it doesn't even have to be true you know, I mean the immigrants to be the cause of it all. Perhaps there are some local problems (there's always some truth you know), but it's enough to be repeated day by day by day in the press and they become The Truth. It sounds plausible (relatively sudden influx of foreign workers, so it must be them right? Not the lack of specialists, financial resources etc cum hoc ergo propter hoc and all that) Do I really need to clarify you how human psychology works? Or how politics, especially the far right one, works? Do you think people will look for stats and other justifications than putting the blame on someone, the foreigner, the other?
This is how politics is done today. And forgive me, but I don't believe a second that our German friends are completely cured and healed by any kind of nationalism and xenophobia. No, sorry, I know what I know.
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Old 30.10.2018, 08:16
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Orchestrating Germany's reunion was indeed a trifle thing, nothing that will have consequences for many generations to come.
I thought Ronald Reagan did that? Huh, I must have gotten a different history book than you.
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  #1276  
Old 30.10.2018, 08:16
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Terrible things happen everywhere, actually one of the gang was German born.
How did I know you'd point that out.

"German born"
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Old 30.10.2018, 09:33
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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OK, I have to clarify my post because I see you're easy to stir up.

I don't try to generalise any BS that is coming from there, but it is a plausible situation that could become true. Of course, part of the immigrants in the UK work for that NHS too (ironically, and it's not even mentioned), but that's a different story and in the minds of say older people - the perception is totally different.

Things are getting worse for them and they associate it with immigrants, refugees ...Lewton, it doesn't even have to be true you know, I mean the immigrants to be the cause of it all. Perhaps there are some local problems (there's always some truth you know), but it's enough to be repeated day by day by day in the press and they become The Truth. It sounds plausible (relatively sudden influx of foreign workers, so it must be them right? Not the lack of specialists, financial resources etc cum hoc ergo propter hoc and all that) Do I really need to clarify you how human psychology works? Or how politics, especially the far right one, works? Do you think people will look for stats and other justifications than putting the blame on someone, the foreigner, the other?
This is how politics is done today. And forgive me, but I don't believe a second that our German friends are completely cured and healed by any kind of nationalism and xenophobia. No, sorry, I know what I know.
This I understand.
I just sometimes see posts in here that describe Germany as a place where nothing is working and gangs of armed brown men walk down the street threatening everybody and picking German girls to rape, so I need to clarify that what you are describing might be a perception for the ones worse off but is really far from the truth.
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Old 30.10.2018, 09:51
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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How did I know you'd point that out.

"German born"
FWIW not just "German born" with what you are trying to imply. The article describes him as native German.
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Old 30.10.2018, 10:28
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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How did I know you'd point that out.

"German born"
How did I know you would not
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Old 30.10.2018, 11:44
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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I thought Ronald Reagan did that? Huh, I must have gotten a different history book than you.
Obviously you don't read German history books. Reagan left office in early '89 btw.
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