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  #1321  
Old 31.10.2018, 16:00
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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From the horses mouth
Wrong horse. Why are you quoting Marton?
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  #1322  
Old 31.10.2018, 16:05
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Up-skill people who are on unemployment, make it easier for women to work, adopt policies for increasing birth rate, things like that.....but then you would say this is too conservative a policy and immediately dismiss it. That is not to say not accepting immigrants or refugees. Not at all.

Seriously, arguing with far left is very similar to arguing with far right. Futile. :-)
Actually those are all good policies.
Whether they can make a big enough difference I do not know.

Unemployment is under 4% so not a big opportunity.
The female employment rate in Germany is already high versus OECD average at over 70% so a target to aim at.
Source
Policies for increasing birth rate would run counter to making it easier for women to work unless you want to have a generation with absent mothers which brings its own problems.
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  #1323  
Old 31.10.2018, 16:06
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Wrong horse. Why are you quoting Marton?
Because I’ve not said anything about the original article nor whether or not it was a gang rape
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  #1324  
Old 31.10.2018, 16:07
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Wrong horse. Why are you quoting Marton?
Because they are words of great wisdom
They were also factual and Loz always has a problem facing facts.
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  #1325  
Old 31.10.2018, 16:09
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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You’ve just missed it.

Far right populists on the rise, SPD fast becoming insignificant, protests on the streets across the country... “no evidence”.

Climate change denier yer know.
You forgot to mention the Greens are also on a big rise.

How this is evidence for high social costs needs explaining!
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  #1326  
Old 31.10.2018, 18:28
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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I suppose you didn't talk with all of them to see if they tell you the same story. Sometimes people tell you what they think you want to hear....especially those who want you to buy something from them. If they choose to play the safety card, so be it.
I don't know why you are assuming I'm buying anything off her. It is interesting that you assume what you did. Actually she buys off me but it's a complicated story and nothing to do with her main business, or mine for that matter.

It's also strange that you say I can't assume there isn't a trend because I didn't talk to all agents, but you are happy to assume Berlin is wonderful because one person who was there says so.

You can never have a fair comparison if you don't work with at least roughly equitable criteria.

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But anyway. It is just normal, I suppose, to see a reverse trend too. Many people from Western Europe move to cheaper countries for various reasons - I would say mostly because it's cheaper - a house, land (you can own a piece of this planet, A PIECE OF THIS PLANET for goodness' sake!!! for so little!!!!! compared to CH for instance!!!), to open or invest in a business etc. etc. Family reasons too, sometimes. It's normal, I see nothing weird here. They too take advantage of the EU you know. Those who know, and who can.
I agree, it's how capitalism works, but that doesn't explain the big increase compared to, say, 2015.

Last edited by amogles; 31.10.2018 at 18:57.
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  #1327  
Old 31.10.2018, 18:31
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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You forgot to mention the Greens are also on a big rise.

How this is evidence for high social costs needs explaining!
The Greens are for the most part just mopping up the discontents who are dropping out of the SPD (and to some extent also the CDU) but who can't come around to supporting the AfD.
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  #1328  
Old 31.10.2018, 18:36
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Unemployment is under 4% so not a big opportunity.
Unemployment figures ignore people who have dropped out of the work market for whatever reason, some of whom can be brought back in with adequate training and up-skilling.

Unemployment figures also ignore the under-employed, such as people on part time contracts who would actually like to upgrade to full time. Or for example people who stay on at university and do a PhD or something purely because they can't find a job.
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  #1329  
Old 31.10.2018, 18:43
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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You're thirty something and he's...I don't know, probably sixty something. C'mon Loz, a bit of decency. I know it's sooooo tempting to say exactly what you think exactly when you think it, but it is not nice.
Generally I don't approve of all this ugly lashing out that happens on these threads. If you can't disagree with civility, you are hurting yourself and your own arguments more than the person you think you are taking down.

But I think that when it comes to certain individuals who think it's perfectly acceptable to lash out (and I'm not thinking Marton here BTW), I'm honestly not too concerned when they get some of it back.
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  #1330  
Old 31.10.2018, 19:07
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Generally I don't approve of all this ugly lashing out that happens on these threads. If you can't disagree with civility, you are hurting yourself and your own arguments more than the person you think you are taking down.

But I think that when it comes to certain individuals who think it's perfectly acceptable to lash out (and I'm not thinking Marton here BTW), I'm honestly not too concerned when they get some of it back.
It's always about who says it, not what they say, isn't it...

However, Marton seems like a nice guy, let's leave him alone. I prefer to see a far right "taken down" than him (lol, no, actually that's not very amusing either, it's tempting to reply to those individuals but you end up being sorry to have dignified their nonsense).....for sure. At least he's genuinely concerned.....although he's stretching his arguments a lot sometimes...

Back to Merkel. I'm afraid of who might come after her. Sick enough of this kind of politics. No matter how much you try to see a glimpse of "something" at Trump et. co....you can't.

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I hope some hard-line conservative replaces her.
Time for the centrist voters to go Green or at least back to the SPD.
Riiiight. Because all we need right now it's some hard-liner in Germany....btw, how would the German equivalent of Trump would look like? Dark hair and moustache?
Be careful what you wish for. Ditto for everyone who's flirting with all sorts of ideas.....I'm not referring to Loz here, btw.

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I don't know why you are assuming I'm buying anything off her. It is interesting that you assume what you did. Actually she buys off me but it's a complicated story and nothing to do with her main business, or mine for that matter.
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Misreading my post so much? I don't get it, I had no idea it is a touchy subject. I didn't assume you're buying anything, I was noticing that all these real estate agents have their lines...here, in Budapest, wherever. If you're a young family they're going to talk about schools and parks, playgrounds etc. If you're thinking to retire - about the safety of an area, quality of health care and so on.
If it is a trend, I'm glad for the business in the region. I just don't agree that all people have the same motivations for buying there and that all real estate agents are using the same lines. I tend to believe people have other reasons, more pragmatic....
Seriously, if it's a trend then it's a trend, good for the region. Nothing to be so worked up for, amogles.

As for Berlin - sorry, I don't think I'm the only one who praised this city. You can't compare it with other places in terms of opportunities and return on investment, plus everyone likes different things... I like Budapest too and I know it has a huge potential, however, I wouldn't buy there if I could afford investing in properties in different places. Hope it's more clear now. Perhaps you should have asked me to clarify certain aspects than assuming I'm assuming. Take care. Nothing to be angry for, seriously.

Last edited by greenmount; 31.10.2018 at 19:59.
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  #1331  
Old 31.10.2018, 19:41
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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It's always about who says it, not what they say, isn't it...
Not really. I regularly contradict people who I tend to agree with otherwise if I think there's something wrong with their reasoning.

There are others here who go along with the clique no matter how stupid the argument gets.

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However, Marton seems like a nice guy, let's leave him alone.
A lot of people on this forum are doubtlessly nice guys. But that's neither here nor there as this forum is no church choir. There's a big difference between disagreeing with somebody and being outright nasty.

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I prefer to see a far right "taken down" (lol, no, actually that's not very amusing) than him.....for sure. At least he's genuinely concerned.....although he's stretching his arguments a lot sometimes....
For me that's more in the category of mildly annoying than anything else. A lot of the stuff Marton posts is fairly solid, even when I disagree, but he does sometimes veer out onto very thin ice and take cherry picking to extremes, which is a pity for him as it dents his overall credibility.

I don't think anybody here isn't "genuinely concerned" so that is neither a "get out of jail free card" nor a "sign off the beast" as far as I can see.

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Back to Merkel. I'm afraid of who might come after her. Sick enough of this kind of politics. No matter how you try to see a glimpse of "something" at Trump et.co....you can't.
I don't think I share your concern. Firstly, Merkel hasn't given up yet, and short of their being a grassroots rebellion against her (which i don't see happening in the CDU right now) she will probably hang on for another year or two, basically until some successor has been groomed and brought to speed. That person is not going to be anybody radical.

We now have a situation that AfD is represented in all Länder parliaments and so from now on, they will also be measured by how well they can hold onto and defend their seats rather than just taking new ones. That's a lot more difficult. Any slow down in growth or even slight reduction in such an election can be hailed as a CDU success.

But of course they need to get there first and this will call for the CDU to connect back more to and listen to its own grassroots rather than allowing its policies to be dictated by what others are doing.

I think of all the German parties, it's the SPD which is most prone to radical populism. You know, they honestly thought fielding Martin Schulz was a good idea, and I don't actually believe they have ever understood what was wrong with him.

But with SPD going the way it is, we don't need to fear very much.
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  #1332  
Old 31.10.2018, 19:59
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Many people from Western Europe move to cheaper countries for various reasons - I would say mostly because it's cheaper - a house, land (you can own a piece of this planet, A PIECE OF THIS PLANET for goodness' sake!!! for so little!!!!! compared to CH for instance!!!), to open or invest in a business etc. etc. Family reasons too, sometimes. It's normal, I see nothing weird here. They too take advantage of the EU you know. Those who know, and who can.
Exactly
I wonder how many people who live in Berlin honestly ponder on whether they want to go to CH vs HU, or struggle to work out which is cheaper. I would assume that's a totally different demographic.

But I digress.
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  #1333  
Old 31.10.2018, 20:04
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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I wonder how many people who live in Berlin honestly ponder on whether they want to go to CH vs HU, or struggle to work out which is cheaper. I would assume that's a totally different demographic.

But I digress.
The reference to CH was made only because we're living here. Nobody assumes there are Berliners who struggle to work out which is cheaper.


As I said in a previous post, I'd be happy if there is a trend - as in many people moving from Berlin or other places to Hungary, or at least buying there. And by that I mean significant business in the region. Seriously.

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Funny, I am there almost every weekend, haven´t seen any exodus. Neither has hubby or his colleagues or our friends or ....

Shhhhh. It doesn't matter. :-)
Funnily enough, your post went unnoticed. Enough said. Not going to dwell on this stuff anymore, each to their own...

Last edited by greenmount; 31.10.2018 at 20:43.
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  #1334  
Old 01.11.2018, 12:59
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Not really. I regularly contradict people who I tend to agree with otherwise if I think there's something wrong with their reasoning.
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Me too. For the same reasons.

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There are others here who go along with the clique no matter how stupid the argument gets.
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Yes, that's true. And going against the current and even questioning one tiny bit all the info and the issues that are presented here as the "absolute truth" is a very risky business here. Opinions are to be questioned. Not using harsh words for sure, but still.

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A lot of people on this forum are doubtlessly nice guys. But that's neither here nor there as this forum is no church choir. There's a big difference between disagreeing with somebody and being outright nasty.
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Probably. Have no idea how's anyone here in real life and I usually judge Efers by what they write here. If there's a lot of bigotry and false info, I don't have much sympathy no matter how nicely they put things.

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There's a big difference between disagreeing with somebody and being outright nasty.
.
Most of the time on EF people call nasty those who simply disagree with them even when there's no nastiness from a neutral or dare I say, logical perspective. What is missing on this forum is the rule that it shouldn't matter so much who is sharing an opinion, but the opinion itself.

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For me that's more in the category of mildly annoying than anything else. A lot of the stuff Marton posts is fairly solid, even when I disagree, but he does sometimes veer out onto very thin ice and take cherry picking to extremes, which is a pity for him as it dents his overall credibility.
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That's very diplomatic, maybe? I don't think everything he's posting here is fairly solid tbh, but each to their own. In general, he's giving very polite replies even when he's seriously stirred up, so my point was it would be nice to replicate the manners...of course, Loz or anyone else is free to do what they please, as we could see so many times.

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I think of all the German parties, it's the SPD which is most prone to radical populism. You know, they honestly thought fielding Martin Schulz was a good idea, and I don't actually believe they have ever understood what was wrong with him.

But with SPD going the way it is, we don't need to fear very much.
Eh, I don't know what to believe, I don't like SPD either. I am worried about what AfD might bring on the table, and the fact that they increased their popularity in only a couple of years is not a good sign.
EU is not perfect, but it is what it is today and the perspective of far right ideas gaining more and more ground is rather unsettling.

I don't want the new generations to grow up in an atmosphere of fear and hatred. The horrible '30s of the last century. I understand the opposition to such a rapid and reckless globalisation, the loss of national identities, the aversion for unsubstantiated, leftist or far leftist policies and ideologies, but what some politicians are trying to achieve to "make things better" is not a solution to these complex problems. I tried hard to understand all points of view and even empathise with those who share them, it's just not possible all the time. Maybe these threads should be ignored. Well, that was it for this thread. To sum it up: Merkel did some mistakes, but what or who could come after Merkel is....I don't know - worrying.

Last edited by greenmount; 01.11.2018 at 13:23.
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  #1335  
Old 01.11.2018, 14:04
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Eh, I don't know what to believe, I don't like SPD either. I am worried about what AfD might bring on the table, and the fact that they increased their popularity in only a couple of years is not a good sign.
EU is not perfect, but it is what it is today and the perspective of far right ideas gaining more and more ground is rather unsettling.

I don't want the new generations to grow up in an atmosphere of fear and hatred. The horrible '30s of the last century. I understand the opposition to such a rapid and reckless globalisation, the loss of national identities, the aversion for unsubstantiated, leftist or far leftist policies and ideologies, but what some politicians are trying to achieve to "make things better" is not a solution to these complex problems. I tried hard to understand all points of view and even empathise with those who share them, it's just not possible all the time. Maybe these threads should be ignored. Well, that was it for this thread. To sum it up: Merkel did some mistakes, but what or who could come after Merkel is....I don't know - worrying.
The AfD are nowhere near to power, and that's not going to change quickly. So whoever leads that party is in no danger of becoming head of government or anything else of much consequence.

Whoever succeeds Merkel will come out of one of the old parties. Most likely from the CDU or the Greens, that is unless the SPD makes some miraculous comeback. You said you feared that the person who replaces Merkel might be a bit like Trump so I assumed you were implying there is some Trump-like monster within SPD, CDU or Greens who is within striking distance of power.

CDU? No, not at all in character.
SPD? The party of populist Martin Schultz, authoritarian Heiko Maas and racist Thilo Sarazin. I'm very happy they're fighting one another more than fighting anybody else
Greens? Yes, some pretty nasty characters there, but experience shows they tend to tone down the rhetoric the closer they get to actual power, so maybe not as dangerous as they sound.
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  #1336  
Old 01.11.2018, 18:01
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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I hope some hard-line conservative replaces her.
Time for the centrist voters to go Green or at least back to the SPD.
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Riiiight. Because all we need right now it's some hard-liner in Germany....btw, how would the German equivalent of Trump would look like? Dark hair and moustache?
Be careful what you wish for. Ditto for everyone who's flirting with all sorts of ideas.....I'm not referring to Loz here, btw.
Not all hard-line conservatives are despicable human beings like Trump.
I would like the CDU to elect some real right-wind conservative who happens to be a decent person who does not use Trump's methods (lying, insulting, encouraging neo-nazis etc).
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Old 01.11.2018, 18:22
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

It is interesting how some people actively blur the difference between a conservative and an alt-right view. They are not the same. To try to portray all conservative views as alt-right is pretty lazy.
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Old 01.11.2018, 18:24
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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It is interesting how some people actively blur the difference between a conservative and an alt-right view. They are not the same. To try to portray all conservative views as alt-right is pretty lazy.
To actively deny any parallels exist is also lazy, though...
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  #1339  
Old 01.11.2018, 21:31
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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Not all hard-line conservatives are despicable human beings like Trump.
I would like the CDU to elect some real right-wind conservative who happens to be a decent person who does not use Trump's methods (lying, insulting, encouraging neo-nazis etc).
Well, "hard-line conservative" seemed a rather odd choice of words to me (personally) but I'm glad you cleared that up. Semantics, semantics. Of course some "real right-wing conservatives" can be decent persons and that wasn't the issue there, was it, but let's decide that after we hear their discourse and their proposals: if it looks like Trump's....wouldn't be dishonest to actively deny they're anything else but? I don't see anyone like that amongst more prominent German politicians, for the moment, but maybe I don't have a clear picture. I'm asking, I'm discussing, I'm not giving verdicts. Your choice of words was a bit tricky.

Back to our issue..... Whom do you prefer to see taking over - Merz? Spahn? And why? Do you have someone else in mind? Wild guess - it's not Kramp-Karrenbauer....

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The AfD are nowhere near to power, and that's not going to change quickly. So whoever leads that party is in no danger of becoming head of government or anything else of much consequence.

.
No, but they're gaining terrain and can set the bar pretty low for everyone else. And I'd hate to see that happening in Germany too. Most of those who are centre-right or centre-left and committed to genuine dialogue as opposed to aggressive or even gentle manipulations, are pretty tired of this domino effect and these political games. I personally want something else for Europe (yes, I don't agree with many issues re. EU but I still think this is not the worst thing that has happened to this continent)...let's not import everything that comes from the USA or other parts. It doesn't function there, it won't function here either.

Edit. Perhaps should have asked this in a different post, but I hate giving mods more work with merging all those posts.

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Greens? Yes, some pretty nasty characters there, but experience shows they tend to tone down the rhetoric the closer they get to actual power, so maybe not as dangerous as they sound.
In which way are they "nasty characters" and to whom exactly are you referring to? I'm not asking to substantiate your assessment just to irritate you, but that's a pretty categoric one and I don't know how you came to that. I never took them very seriously tbh because I don't like "single-issue parties", but as of lately, they (apparently) are winning over the votes of "open bourgeois flank of the CDU" in a new attempt to rebrand themselves. If the rebranding act is a genuine one or just dictated by the current state of affairs in politics, I wouldn't know. It seems a pragmatic decisions - single-issue parties don't get too far usually. They need to add something on top of their traditional agenda.

Anyway, I barely know a few characters there and they don't strike me as "nasty" - no more than other people with similar views at least. We're all subjective of course, but I have a real interest in knowing how other people think and why. If they're aiming to represent the interests of certain socio-economic strata in the big pot of government and "governing", I see nothing new or bad in itself here.

I'm personally far away from wanting a strong leader or leadership figure, though I understand the temptation - one who'll fix everything with his strong hands and mind, isn't it. (btw, imho exactly this has led the Americans, and others, to voting people like Trump....but that's neither here nor there in this case and I don't want this separate discussion to revolve around this reference) I'm rather pro-pluralism and dialogue....lol, among those peculiar folks who believe that people can be rational. And there's an explanation for everything.

Last edited by greenmount; 02.11.2018 at 10:48.
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  #1340  
Old 03.11.2018, 20:56
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Re: Do you believe in Merkel?

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No, but they're gaining terrain and can set the bar pretty low for everyone else. And I'd hate to see that happening in Germany too. Most of those who are centre-right or centre-left and committed to genuine dialogue as opposed to aggressive or even gentle manipulations, are pretty tired of this domino effect and these political games.
I'm not convinced.

A lot of what is coming from the established parties, and also the press, in Germany and other European countries in reaction to the far right is not exactly intelligent discourse but more caricature drawing akin to what some posters on the EF are good at. In other words, if you don't like your enemy / opponent, pretend you have a different one and react to that one. Such a policy may be moderately successful for a while, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's anything akin to genuine discourse.

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I personally want something else for Europe (yes, I don't agree with many issues re. EU but I still think this is not the worst thing that has happened to this continent)...let's not import everything that comes from the USA or other parts. It doesn't function there, it won't function here either.
I agree.

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In which way are they "nasty characters" and to whom exactly are you referring to? I'm not asking to substantiate your assessment just to irritate you, but that's a pretty categoric one and I don't know how you came to that. I never took them very seriously tbh because I don't like "single-issue parties", but as of lately, they (apparently) are winning over the votes of "open bourgeois flank of the CDU" in a new attempt to rebrand themselves. If the rebranding act is a genuine one or just dictated by the current state of affairs in politics, I wouldn't know. It seems a pragmatic decisions - single-issue parties don't get too far usually. They need to add something on top of their traditional agenda.
The German Greens stopped being a single issue party a long time ago. Right now, environmental issues have taken back stage, largely because the other parties have also developed credible environmental agendas and shown that they are serious about them rather than just going through the motions to win votes as might have been the case 20 years ago.

The Greens pursue a thoroughly paternalist ideal of the state. Lots of laws and regulations and interventions. Remember how not too long ago they were talking about enforcing vegetarian days in canteens.This led to an outcry and a lot of jokes in bad taste in the population as a whole, but within the party itself nobody saw what was wrong with the idea. The anti-authoritarian party of yesterday who were once so proud of their "Streitkultur" had become a super authoritarian party today and totally lost the ability to introspect or recognize their own shortcomings.



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I'm personally far away from wanting a strong leader or leadership figure, though I understand the temptation - one who'll fix everything with his strong hands and mind, isn't it. (btw, imho exactly this has led the Americans, and others, to voting people like Trump....but that's neither here nor there in this case and I don't want this separate discussion to revolve around this reference) I'm rather pro-pluralism and dialogue....lol, among those peculiar folks who believe that people can be rational. And there's an explanation for everything.
It may be that some Americans voted Trump out of desire for a strong leader who could deliver miracles, as indeed they voted Obama for the same reason before him, but Trump hasn't exactly been a strong leader, let alone a miracle worker (and his election campaign didn't exactly smell of strong leadership either, so you can't even say he mislead people in that respect), and I don't think he will suddenly turn into a strong leader at the eleventh hour. Obama could be a strong leader at times but he was also extremely polarizing and he divided the country more than he united it, which made things so much easier for Trump.

I don't think any of the present European leaders or those likely to take over from them are in the category of either Obama or Trump, so I don't think there is an immediate danger that Europe will walk the same road as America in the immediate future. The situation is different and the likely next steps also. That is not to say that polarization isn't a problem.

What is more likely in Europe in my view is that the traditional parties will melt away in favor of new or former fringe parties. Consider Podemos or Ciudanos in Spain, 5-Star in Italy, La République en Marche in France. In some cases these new parties offer new perspectives, or just the absence of poisonous baggage from the past, and in some cases its just clever marketing with the same old lies being served with new sparkle. Only time will tell. Maybe the German Greens also fit into this category, or maybe their recent rise is just a temporary one before something new comes along. Interesting times ahead.

Last edited by amogles; 03.11.2018 at 21:12.
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