The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	"Why the need to negotiate the exit - if we vote out, we're out." I assume there are a lot contracts, deals, money payments which are in progress and next steps will need to be understood and agreed. Look for example at the research program Horizon 2020 - - European Commission - here there are billions of euros in play....

When Switzerland voted on the FMOP thing the Erasmus program was terminated the very next day, almost, and the consequences of the rest of it have still not been worked out to this day.

It seems that in the EU some things kick in automatically when they want them to and some things get protracted and negotiated or even stonewalled when they want them to.

And then they accuse others of cherry picking.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Exactly, if the UK votes out- the rest of Europe will definitely make them take the sting, ands certainly will NOT let the UK have its cake and eat it- that is for sure.

The rest of Europe?

Not a very nice way to speak of Angela.

[tormund]

Here's Boris Johnson's take on it (he's for leaving):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...ve-the-EU.html

I agree with pretty much everything he says. The EU is becoming authoritarian and the natural thing to do is leave. The Euro currency hegemony just isn't worth the loss of sovereignty/self-determination.

Funny thing about all this is that Cameron seems to think this referendum will be decided on emergency brakes and child benefits for EU citizens. Whereas this whole referendum hinges on whether EU border forces resort to shooting migrants before or after June 23rd.

[Sbrinz]

Due to the "EU free movement laws" being non negotiable, Cameron cannot simply block the EU migrant workers. His one hope of controlling migration & still remaining within the EU laws, is to make the UK less attractive to EU citizens, by reducing the free handouts, and to a great extent he has. I think Cameron did a grand job against the sabre rattling Europeans.

It is a pity he cannot convince his right wing Conservative party members to remain in the EU and work within the committees to improve it. Mostly everyone else wants to keep the present relationship (Shown by our own poll, at the beginning of this thread) Within the Conservative cabinet government the feelings are something like: leave 7 and remain 14.

To some extent this is not relevant as those are only 21 votes, and the voting on 23.6.2016 will result from the votes of millions of Brits.

For me the attraction for remaining in the EU, is it is better to be with the devil you know, as trying out new deals with a new devil.

[Castro]

Any politician who argues 'for' or 'against' based on security will immediately lose my interest. I am all for having a factual debate, but using the spectre of gunmen on the streets of London to support your side is deeply disingenuous.

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	For me the attraction for remaining in the EU, is it is better to be with the devil you know, as trying out new deals with a new devil.

I think most people feel that way.

Although I'm already getting so sick of the whining from both sides that I'm starting to think that perhaps leaving the EU is the kick up the bum everyone needs to STFU and get on with it.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	Castro
	Any politician who argues 'for' or 'against' based on security will immediately lose my interest. I am all for having a factual debate, but using the spectre of gunmen on the streets of London to support your side is deeply disingenuous.

Agreed, I don't think security has much to do with it. The main issues are control of our own economy, laws and legislation.

The UK will likely always work with the EU on security issues that make the world a better place, the difference would be that we can have tighter control of what happens in our own borders. If anything, security would probably improve..

[Phil_MCR]

Security in the UK isn't bad anyway. Being physically separated by the sea gives a natural strong border.

Plus being outside of Schengen, the UK has not been forced to eliminate border controls to other Schengen countries.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	Security in the UK isn't bad anyway. Being physically separated by the sea gives a natural strong border. Plus being outside of Schengen, the UK has not been forced to eliminate border controls to other Schengen countries.

Yeah the island factor is certainly a big plus, though the Calais tunnel is kind of our weak point now, you could probably get an army through it if we didn't blow it up ourselves, heh.

Just imagine though if the UK was geographically positioned elsewhere, closer to the mainlands or near to the hotspot countries... eek.

	Quote:	amogles
	It seems that in the EU some things kick in automatically when they want them to and some things get protracted and negotiated or even stonewalled when they want them to. And then they accuse others of cherry picking.

Agreed. Lack of clarity and their endless dithering makes the implementation of EU policy and directives confusing.

Iain Duncan Smith pointed out yesterday his concerns regarding the free movement of people and the EU failing to gets its act together with some members allowing many people in without controls on borders. People given EU passports means potential problems for the UK further down the road when an uncontrolled amount could in effect end up in Britain.

If the controls aren't there a country which has a large number of migrants receive x amount money from EU funds, passports then given, movement begins.. more money needed, housing, healthcare etc. No proper reform means no one knows how this is going to pan out in the long term.

Britain's security is actually better than mainland Europe anyway. Listening to BBC's Frank Gardener this morning where he points out that Britain security closest links are with America, Australia, Canada and N. Zealand and not the EU. EU security is not very good so there's no benefit to the UK one way or the other.

There are some other positives that can come out of this referendum. Corbyn is doing an excellent job of butchering the Labour party. Let's hope that this EU campaign turns nasty and barrymores the Tories too.

[lewton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	There are some other positives that can come out of this referendum. Corbyn is doing an excellent job of butchering the Labour party. Let's hope that this EU campaign turns nasty and barrymores the Tories too.

Because if both Labour and Tories get butchered it will be good for whom? The LibDems (who are pro-EU) or the UKIP?

	Quote:	lewton
	Because if both Labour and Tories get butchered it will be good for whom?

It'll be good for UK politics. The two party politics that exists at the moment is bad for the country. If there was real democracy in the UK this wouldn't be the case; infighting that causes a split in the main parties is the best we can hope for.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	It'll be good for UK politics. The two party politics that exists at the moment is bad for the country. If there was real democracy in the UK this wouldn't be the case; infighting that causes a split in the main parties is the best we can hope for.

A FPTP system always favours two main parties. For true diversity in politics we would have to look into PR.

[Sbrinz]

When you look at the opposite political style in Switzerland, with lots of checks and balances, you can see why nothing gets done at all.

At least in the UK once there is a change in government, you see a quick change of policy, and a clean new broom, well for the first 12 months or so.

[Belgianmum]

This made me smile this morning.

BANTZ

How does this work?

Can Switzerland show UK route to Brexit? Lesson to be learned here? EVERYTHING is negotiable.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

Beeb doing the can Switzerland show UK the way with EU again.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-...endum-35615604

Cameron says it's a leap in the dark if the UK leaves. So what? It was a leap in the dark when we joined up.