The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[SponPlague]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	So you have not got a single actual link, just your interpretation to suit your agenda. No doubt these people have been in the past associated with all kinds stuff that we can now conclude based on your reasoning to be reasons for BREXIT.

Here’s UKIP’s 2017 manifesto for starters: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1495695469

	Quote:
	The EU’s Common Agricultural Policy has damaged our countryside. The Common Fisheries Policy has devastated fish stocks around our coastline. The way the EU – and our government – embraced diesel proved to be disastrous, even fatal. The Water Framework Directive led to serious flooding in many parts of the country by preventing river dredging. Repealing this directive will spare homeowners the misery of flooding and exorbitant insurance premiums...

But we’ve been consistent about criticising the EU’s environmental crededentials since the start: https://www.capitalandconflict.com/b...gy-of-despair/

	Quote:
	In the mid-1990s people in Holland complained that the smell from their farms was becoming unbearable. They appealed to the EU for a remedy. The EU responded with a directive: farmers would send sachets of slurry to sniffing teams in Brussels to guarantee that the smell was within acceptable limits. “In this way the EU became the first body in history to legislate for the harmonisation of bullshit.” I am indebted to Professor Alan Sked who shared this gem in a speech at the London School of Economics on 8 June.

[marton]

	Quote:	SponPlague
	After Brexit, the UK would have the option of exploring alternatives. My point remains that any discussion about the benefits or otherwise of EU membership necessarily includes climate change, man-made or otherwise.

Such options are meaningless unless a major party has it as a key point in their manifesto? aka, it will never happen!

Such discussions about the benefits of EU membership are somewhat doomed unless the country you belong to actually has a different view on these topics than the EU compact.

[SponPlague]

Owen Paterson, as environment secretary, came to realise the EU was the problem, for example causing river flooding, by banning dredging.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...EU-policy.html

Having mastered his brief, David Cameron fired him: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...se-green-lobby

[marton]

	Quote:	SponPlague
	Owen Paterson, as environment secretary, came to realise the EU was the problem, for example causing river flooding, by banning dredging. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...EU-policy.html Having mastered his brief, David Cameron fired him: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...se-green-lobby

The "EU" is only "the problem" if the UK did not vote for such policies.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	SponPlague
	Here’s UKIP’s 2017 manifesto for starters: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1495695469

Right, remind us again when was the referendum... Oh ya, 2016. Stop digging it is starting to get very boring.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	SponPlague
	Owen Paterson, as environment secretary, came to realise the EU was the problem, for example causing river flooding, by banning dredging.

You still believe that absolute twaddle?

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK...ut-foundation/

I lived in Godalming when it was flooded in December 2013 and moved to Windsor's 'golden triangle' just in time for the floods in Wraysbury. All my friends, neighbours, colleagues and flood insurance company would say you're talking absolute twaddle.

Anyway, back to gazing at the beautiful Blue Flag beach by my balcony, and before you start off with "But Blue Flag isn't an EU directive, etc..." I know, but did you know it's standards were incorporated in the EC Water Framework Directive?

[SponPlague]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	You still believe that absolute twaddle? https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK...ut-foundation/ I lived in Godalming when it was flooded in December 2013 and moved to Windsor's 'golden triangle' just in time for the floods in Wraysbury. All my friends, neighbours, colleagues and flood insurance company would say you're talking absolute twaddle. Anyway, back to gazing at the beautiful Blue Flag beach by my balcony, and before you start off with "But Blue Flag isn't an EU directive, etc..." I know, but did you know it's standards were incorporated in the EC Water Framework Directive?

If we’re talking blue flags, then we’re talking mariolatry, and I, as an Episcopalean, object 😡

	Quote:	SponPlague
	But we’ve been consistent about criticising the EU’s environmental crededentials since the start: https://www.capitalandconflict.com/b...gy-of-despair/

Looks like yet another lie.

[SponPlague]

I heard Dr. Alan Sked make the point in person on numerous occasions. Are you saying he was wrong?

[Blueangel]

Made which point exactly? He's a professor of international history, so no more qualified to comment on the environmental impact of EU policy than anyone here. He also wants foster closer political ties between the UK and the US, which is somewhat thwarted by EU membership. Quelle surprise.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	SponPlague
	I heard Dr. Alan Sked make the point in person on numerous occasions. Are you saying he was wrong?

An old duffer who founded UKIP.... so far you have totally failed to produce a single shred of credible evidence to support your outlandish claims. At this point it is time to stop taking you seriously.

[SponPlague]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	An old duffer who founded UKIP.... so far you have totally failed to produce a single shred of credible evidence to support your outlandish claims. At this point it is time to stop taking you seriously.

My claim was that people are citing environmental arguments as part of their pro or anti-EU arguments. That stands up, even if you disagree with the arguments or the people making them.

[SponPlague]

Also depends on what you call credible evidence: dredging, for example, can and does help: https://www.buglife.org.uk/sites/def...ty%20check.pdf

	Quote:
	We conclude that dredging can play an important role in flood risk management in some cases

[SponPlague]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	An old duffer who founded UKIP.... so far you have totally failed to produce a single shred of credible evidence to support your outlandish claims. At this point it is time to stop taking you seriously.

The EU does inspect pig odours, including dung:

https://www.epa.ie/pubs/reports/rese...ts%20Final.pdf

	Quote:
	Close to 200 pig units will be applying for IPC licences in Ireland in the next few years, as a result of the EPA Act of 1992 and European IPPC licensing requirements. The assessment of the odour impact of these pig units will be an important element of the licensing process, which will be carried out by the Environmental Protection Agency. Suitable criteria for ‘acceptable exposure’ to odours are required, in order to set, limit and target values for odour impact. Appropriate odour assessment methods are required to quantify emissions and, if required, to control and enforce licence conditions. To allow pig producers to manage the impact of odours, information is required on the relationship between production practice, housing types and odour emissions, as well as on suitable approaches to the abatement of odour emissions.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	SponPlague
	My claim was that people are citing environmental arguments as part of their pro or anti-EU arguments. That stands up, even if you disagree with the arguments or the people making them.

Your claim was that environmental issues was one of the reason for BREXIT and you were asked to give a reference to even one of the BREXIT leaders arguing this during the campaign so far you have not done it and you are not going to do it because it does not exist. Now it is time to just ignore your claims since you have not posted anything to support of them. Time to start ignoring this nonsense.

	Quote:	SponPlague
	The EU does inspect pig odours, including dung: https://www.epa.ie/pubs/reports/rese...ts%20Final.pdf

And what is wrong with that? Should the level of smell be uncontrolled?

Oh and BTW...
- Please note the inspection is the responsibility of the Irish (in this case) EPA and not the EU. As usual the EU sets the minimum standard, it is for the national authorities to enforce it (and as ever it is always open to each member to impose tougher standards if they choose). Sending slurry to Brussels? Only in your fantasy world.
- The legislation controls more than just odour. All levels of pollution arising from slurry are controlled, particularly impact on ground water and rivers
- There has been tougher legislation in the last couple of years
- The initial relevant legislation dates back to 1992 (and the initialisation of the legislation therefore well before that, well before your claimed mid 90s Dutch story. Hence my comment the story is a lie.

	Quote:
	And what is wrong with that? Should the level of smell be uncontrolled? Oh and BTW... - Please note the inspection is the responsibility of the Irish (in this case) EPA and not the EU. As usual the EU sets the minimum standard, it is for the national authorities to enforce it (and as ever it is always open to each member to impose tougher standards if they choose). Sending slurry to Brussels? Only in your fantasy world. - The legislation controls more than just odour. All levels of pollution arising from slurry are controlled, particularly impact on ground water and rivers - There has been tougher legislation in the last couple of years - The initial relevant legislation dates back to 1992 (and the initialisation of the legislation therefore well before that, well before your claimed mid 90s Dutch story. Hence my comment the story is a lie.

I suspect Brexiteers think eutrophication means giving the Europeans an award.

[SponPlague]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Your claim was that environmental issues was one of the reason for BREXIT and you were asked to give a reference to even one of the BREXIT leaders arguing this during the campaign so far you have not done it and you are not going to do it because it does not exist. Now it is time to just ignore your claims since you have not posted anything to support of them. Time to start ignoring this nonsense.

https://www.edie.net/news/11/EU-Refe...AINST-Brexit-/

https://leave.eu/about/

	Quote:
	Agriculture and fishing will also benefit from falling under national administration for the first time in over forty years. We will now be able to take back control of our country.

https://www.nfuonline.com/vote-leave-ge/

	Quote:
	EU regulations make life hard for the UK’s farmers. If we have the courage to Vote Leave and take back control, we would be free to think again and could achieve so much more for farmers and our environment.

	Quote:	SponPlague
	EU regulations make life hard for the UK’s farmers. If we have the courage to Vote Leave and take back control, we would be free to think again and could achieve so much more for farmers and our environment.

Looking at the UKs record on pesticide regulation be very very grateful that the EU at least forced a minimum standard on them.

Look up the neonicotinoid story for a nice example. The NFU and UK government opposed the ban.

[SponPlague]

Agreed. In some areas the standards are good, but in others not so - for example, I read that the British standard on cladding would have prevented Grenfell - but it was the lesser, mandatory EU one they tested to.

It is arguable, as per the post above, that on balance, the benefits of leaving outweigh the benefits of remaining...