The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[SponPlague]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	For anyone delusional enough to believe that Farage and the Brexit Party give a flying fig about democracy, there's a little video you might enjoy. Attachment 136884 https://twitter.com/Channel4News/sta...73859170836480

Indeed. Nigel says he believes in Referendum results, and the people over executive committees, but when ‘Kippers voted clearly no in an internal vote on joining a Pan European Political Party, he went to the national executive, told them the people had voted the wrong way, and it was their duty to overturn the result!

[SponPlague]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Are you really missing the point here? TBP might have 'party' in it's name, but it doesn't have a membership.

Neither did Sir James Goldsmith’s Referendum Party, and remember how influential that was: it’s basically why Britain isn’t in the Euro!

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Nope. It's your go to response when you refuse to acknowledge the facts. Change UK hit the ground running and have an interim leader until they have time to have a leadership election. That won't happen with TBP because it doesn't have a membership. It's a vehicle for Farage and his views, which is the ultimate cult politics of personality. He had one party but couldn't control it, so he's begun another with total control. Very undemocratic. Personally, I just see it as Farage with the begging bowl out again, like the evenings with him that he charges £500 to attend. With a normal MP, constituents can visit their surgery and meet them for free.

Now you're just making stuff up. You don't know that that won't happen with the Brexit Party, and you also don’t know that Change UK will hold a leadership election “when they have the time”.

Farage also didn’t “lose control of UKIP”, he quit as leader and the party chose to go in a direction he didn’t agree with so he left. People are now queuing up to pay £25 a head just to be, as you point out, “supporters” of his party. No one is forcing them, and the terms of their patronage is perfectly clear when they cough up their money. It’s almost as if Farage has a message that resonates.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	jim2007
	and that is your problem - you put your own petty interests before that of your country and fellow citizens. But you are in good company because most of the brexiteers do virtually everybody does the same.

ftfy

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	ftfy

It is actually very simple, if BREXITEERs cared about their country they have a plan of what happens the day after and their voters would demand it. The fact that people vote for a party, who instead of actually taking responsibility for delivering BREXIT instead demands that others should deliver it for them or else they might run in the next GE, says it all. The BREXIT party policy - get someone else to do it because we don’t know who and don’t want the responsibility.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	It's nothing to do with grammar. You misrepresented what he wrote for your own ends.

Maybe you just don't understand it, its the only conclusion I can draw. The phrase "Some People might say that..." is used in the context of sarcasm to illustrate a conclusion that the writer themselves also draws.

If you don't see what is being said, I think we leave it at that, because unless you understand the implied intention of meaning using sarcasm, we won't get any further.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Now you're just making stuff up. You don't know that that won't happen with the Brexit Party, and you also don’t know that Change UK will hold a leadership election “when they have the time”. Farage also didn’t “lose control of UKIP”, he quit as leader and the party chose to go in a direction he didn’t agree with so he left. People are now queuing up to pay £25 a head just to be, as you point out, “supporters” of his party. No one is forcing them, and the terms of their patronage is perfectly clear when they cough up their money. It’s almost as if Farage has a message that resonates.

Resonates?! What complete bollox.. does it ever end? Brexit is undeliverable and Farage offers a child-like solution: get out and end the mess. Nothing at all to back it up. Reading last week about an ex-steel worker, unemployed, struggling, votes for Farage angry at Westminister's failure to sort out the steel industry and Brexit. Turkeys voting for Christmas, when Farage has no plans or agreements to move Brexit forward. Just like a child who bangs his fists and demands brexit. Same old, same old.. one trick pony shite and then wants the grown ups to sort and fix it.

And, BTW, would someone please ask Farage to explain to his voters Art. 24. without peddling complete nonsense and lies.

	Quote:	Swisstree
	Resonates?! What complete bollox.. does it ever end? Brexit is undeliverable and Farage offers a child-like solution: get out and end the mess. Nothing at all to back it up. Reading last week about an ex-steel worker, unemployed, struggling, votes for Farage angry at Westminister's failure to sort out the steel industry and Brexit. Turkeys voting for Christmas, when Farage has no plans or agreements to move Brexit forward. Just like a child who bangs his fists and demands brexit. Same old, same old.. one trick pony shite and then wants the grown ups to sort and fix it. And, BTW, would someone please ask Farage to explain to his voters Art. 24. without peddling complete nonsense and lies.

“People were too stupid to know what they were voting for!”

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	“People were too stupid to know what they were voting for!”

As has become apparent by the Government's failure to get agreement on what Brexit to deliver.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	“People were too stupid to know what they were voting for!”

And we're off on whataboutery merry-go-round again. Yawn.

[marton]

	Quote:	Mikers
	Maybe you just don't understand it, its the only conclusion I can draw. The phrase "Some People might say that..." is used in the context of sarcasm to illustrate a conclusion that the writer themselves also draws. If you don't see what is being said, I think we leave it at that, because unless you understand the implied intention of meaning using sarcasm, we won't get any further.

Great red herring!

Completely ignoring the key point of my original post that people are signing up and donating money with no control over how it will be spent or any idea on what it will be spent. There is not even any commitment given in the web site that the donations will be spent on Brexit related activities!

[Mikers]

	Quote:	marton
	Great red herring! Completely ignoring the key point of my original post that people are signing up and donating money with no control over how it will be spent or any idea on what it will be spent. There is not even any commitment given in the web site that the donations will be spent on Brexit related activities!

I completely agree Marton, I have no objection at all to that being pointed out.

My point is about the comment on the end about Brexit party members not being the brightest light on the tree (or however it was exactly phrased). It's an element of a wider point we have all seen through the last few years of continually deploying the message that people who wanted to leave the EU "didn't know what they were voting for", "didn't understand Brexit", "have a problem with foreigners" and so forth, which when thrown in enough times, eventually leads to the Mud Sticks principle where they are labelled as unintelligent, quite unfairly so.

The upshot of this is that its only going to make them more determined than ever to keep their course and be determined to leave the EU. It's a self-defeating method of attack because you are hardening their resolve to stay in their lane. There are several ways as we all know that you could make the point that by submitting your money to the Brexit parts for membership you are not aware of it's spending policy without labeling people as unintelligent.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	More food for thought, 3 million odd EU nationals living in the UK. Makes you wonder what influence they had on the EU elections. They also can’t vote in national elections and referendums.

Basically the UK prevented them from voting. Something they are likely to be taken to court for.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-admin-errors

[marton]

	Quote:	Mikers
	I completely agree Marton, I have no objection at all to that being pointed out. My point is about the comment on the end about Brexit party members not being the brightest light on the tree (or however it was exactly phrased). It's an element of a wider point we have all seen through the last few years of continually deploying the message that people who wanted to leave the EU "didn't know what they were voting for", "didn't understand Brexit", "have a problem with foreigners" and so forth, which when thrown in enough times, eventually leads to the Mud Sticks principle where they are labelled as unintelligent, quite unfairly so. The upshot of this is that its only going to make them more determined than ever to keep their course and be determined to leave the EU. It's a self-defeating method of attack because you are hardening their resolve to stay in their lane. There are several ways as we all know that you could make the point that by submitting your money to the Brexit parts for membership you are not aware of it's spending policy without labeling people as unintelligent.

There is an implicit assumption in your post that people will somehow be given an opportunity to express their determination to leave the EU?
I doubt that there will be another vote!

Anyway if people vote for major decisions based simply on hurt feelings then they deserve to get what they wish for.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	It is actually very simple, if BREXITEERs cared about their country they have a plan of what happens the day after and their voters would demand it. The fact that people vote for a party, who instead of actually taking responsibility for delivering BREXIT instead demands that others should deliver it for them or else they might run in the next GE, says it all. The BREXIT party policy - get someone else to do it because we don’t know who and don’t want the responsibility.

Brexiteers care about the UK just as much as you, they just have a different vision of what that means.

Hardly anybody votes against their own personal interests. Just to make an example, if Remain meant that all British and Irish citizens (including multinationals) have to leave Switzerland whithin one year, with no possibility of naturalising beforehand, would you still argue for and vote Remain?

Your reproach is well placed as long as you target the Brexit figureheads, most notably BoJo and Farage, and it's fair to expect them to lead the negotiations and the implementation, or at least oversee it. That's why I call Farage and BoJo cowards.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Brexiteers care about the UK just as much as you,

That’s not setting the bar very high. Jim doesn’t just not care about the UK, he absolutely loathes the place.

[DanLF]

Borris must now finally answer for one of the lies that was told before the referendum, concerning 350 million going to the EU per week (on the infamous bus). I don't fancy his chances of becoming PM now, whatever the courts decide.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8934451.html

Makes me wonder what other lies were told to get people to vote for Brexit... but at least Borris must now answer for one of his bigger porkies.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	DanLF
	Borris must now finally answer for one of the lies that was told before the referendum, concerning 350 million going to the EU per week (on the infamous bus). I don't fancy his chances of becoming PM now, whatever the courts decide. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8934451.html Makes me wonder what other lies were told to get people to vote for Brexit... but at least Borris must now answer for one of his bigger porkies.

It will increase his chances of becoming PM. It will retrench and harden his supporters to follow him more.

Its an interesting concept though, can we put Nick Clegg behind bars now for lying about abolishing tuition fees when he was part of the coalition ?

	Quote:	Loz1983
	That’s not setting the bar very high. Jim doesn’t just not care about the UK, he absolutely loathes the place.

I'm sure his issue is with specific nationals, rather than the place in general

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Your reproach is well placed as long as you target the Brexit figureheads, most notably BoJo and Farage, and it's fair to expect them to lead the negotiations and the implementation, or at least oversee it. That's why I call Farage and BoJo cowards.

The figure heads would not be there if they did not get the support.