The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Mikers
	I don’t think though, from what we’ve seen so far there is a solution ? Leave EU = Border = not acceptable because of effect on GFI. So the absurdity of it all is we shouldnt have had a referendum in the first place because we can’t leave because of the effect it would have on Ireland.

The absurdity is starting something like BREXIT with no foresight or plan and then getting all upset when you discover it will not work.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	The absurdity is starting something like BREXIT with no foresight or plan and then getting all upset when you discover it will not work.

Which loops back round to the start: by ‘it won’t work’ what is meant is that Ireland could end up back at war. Which means we can’t leave due to the threat of violence, and to me at least that’s not a good message because it’s undemocratic.

We need the Swiss rule where referendum can be reversed by the government.

[Blueangel]

The thread that follows from some esteemed medical professionals should be a huge wake up call for the government, but as is pointed out, there isn't a single scientist in the current cabinet.


https://twitter.com/Dr_PhilippaW/sta...10263083761664

	Quote:	Mikers
	We need the Swiss rule where referendum can be reversed by the government.

We do have that rule. All UK referenda are only advisory, not legally binding.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Mikers
	Which loops back round to the start: by ‘it won’t work’ what is meant is that Ireland could end up back at war. Which means we can’t leave due to the threat of violence, and to me at least that’s not a good message because it’s undemocratic.

Start by knowing the name of the two states: Ireland (or Eire as the UK government prefer to use, for some strange reason) and Northern Ireland. And what you have basically had in NI is a civil war, which to a hell of a let of effort to bring to a close. Or at least we thought we had a close. GFA provides the means for ultimately resolving this with a border poll, but we're probably 50 years or more away from that. You want to have it happen earlier, then you need to figure out how to reverse the Plantation of Ulster.

To some extent this was done after the Anglo-Irish Treaty in 1921, where by the British and Irish governments compensated people who wished to move back to the UK. The only problem with Ulster is that the planters are of Scottish origin not English, so motiving them to move back to what might turnout to be an independent Scotland within the EU... could be even more of a challenge.

	Quote:	Mikers
	We need the Swiss rule where referendum can be reversed by the government.

The UK has a sovereign parliament not a sovereign people, so referenda are always advisory so they can just be ignored by parliament if they want. So there is not need for such a rule in any case.

[bowlie]

Any referendum that receive approval from only a third (give or take) of the electorate should always be ignored.

Any referendum that receive approval of a clear majority (55-60%) of the electorate should be considered as binding as any law passed by parliament. But then you need much better questions.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Start by knowing the name of the two states: Ireland (or Eire as the UK government prefer to use, for some strange reason) and Northern Ireland. And what you have basically had in NI is a civil war, which to a hell of a let of effort to bring to a close. Or at least we thought we had a close. GFA provides the means for ultimately resolving this with a border poll, but we're probably 50 years or more away from that. You want to have it happen earlier, then you need to figure out how to reverse the Plantation of Ulster. To some extent this was done after the Anglo-Irish Treaty in 1921, where by the British and Irish governments compensated people who wished to move back to the UK. The only problem with Ulster is that the planters are of Scottish origin not English, so motiving them to move back to what might turnout to be an independent Scotland within the EU... could be even more of a challenge. The UK has a sovereign parliament not a sovereign people, so referenda are always advisory so they can just be ignored by parliament if they want. So there is not need for such a rule in any case.

Ok thank you for the detailed history, it’s very informative. But it leaves the point the same as think ? The risk of leaving the EU is the return of civil war. Which is not what should be at stake when deciding to join or leave a club. If it is, fine, but be clear: we can’t leave the EU because of the risk of violence in Ireland.

[Blueangel]

Can't help but wonder...

	Quote:
	A man from Dublin has been charged with illegally importing firearms after 60 weapons were found in a car arriving in Dover from Calais. The National Crime Agency (NCA) said the guns were found concealed in a Volkswagen Passat by the Border Force and NCA on Friday. It is believed to be the largest seizure of lethal-purpose weapons at a UK port.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europ...mpaign=bbcnews

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Mikers
	Ok thank you for the detailed history, it’s very informative. But it leaves the point the same as think ? The risk of leaving the EU is the return of civil war. Which is not what should be at stake when deciding to join or leave a club. If it is, fine, but be clear: we can’t leave the EU because of the risk of violence in Ireland.

Nice theory, but the reality is that it is a civil war within the U.K. borders, not Ireland. If Boris pulls the plug it will his mess to clean up and this time it will be a lot more difficult because the support is not there.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Can't help but wonder...

Almost certainly gang related. London has seen a rise in knife related crime while Dublin and Limerick have seen a similar type growth in gun related crime. It seems like hardly a week goes by now that there isn’t a shooting.

[SponPlague]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Start by knowing the name of the two states: Ireland (or Eire as the UK government prefer to use, for some strange reason) and Northern Ireland.

Well, as a rule-of-thumb, you could argue that a country should be known internationally by the name that appears on its postage stamps

(And yes, I know what’s on Swiss stamps )

[bowlie]

To Eire is human, to forgive devine.

[SponPlague]

[SponPlague]

	Quote:	marton
	Why don't they give those billions to the NHS?

Good news: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ction-NHS.html

[22 yards]

	Quote:	SponPlague
	Well, as a rule-of-thumb, you could argue that a country should be known internationally by the name that appears on its postage stamps (And yes, I know what’s on Swiss stamps )

And which country name appears on stamps of the UK?

[22 yards]

	Quote:	SponPlague
	Good news: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ction-NHS.html

"Boris Johnson announces emergency £1.8m cash injection for the NHS as he attempts to draw a line under his ill-fated £350m-a-year bus pledge"

£350m a week, not.a year! £1.8m doesn't even cover two months' worth of Boris's lie-promise!

[SponPlague]

	Quote:	22 yards
	And which country name appears on stamps of the UK?

It doesn’t. Only a picture of the head of state. With no name, no-one dan complain the wrong one is being promoted

[HIAO]

	Quote:	22 yards
	"Boris Johnson announces emergency £1.8m cash injection for the NHS as he attempts to draw a line under his ill-fated £350m-a-year bus pledge" £350m a week, not.a year! £1.8m doesn't even cover two months' worth of Boris's lie-promise!

£1.8bn.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	22 yards
	"Boris Johnson announces emergency £1.8m cash injection for the NHS as he attempts to draw a line under his ill-fated £350m-a-year bus pledge" £350m a week, not.a year! £1.8m doesn't even cover two months' worth of Boris's lie-promise!

The text talks of 1.8 billion, the headline of 1.8m. I wonder if the Daily Mail is looking for proofreaders or mathematicians?

	Quote:	22 yards
	"Boris Johnson announces emergency £1.8m cash injection for the NHS as he attempts to draw a line under his ill-fated £350m-a-year bus pledge" £350m a week, not.a year! £1.8m doesn't even cover two months' worth of Boris's lie-promise!

Even the Daily Wail has got the facts of the original Brexit bus-lies jumbled up. Epic facepalmery.