The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[marton]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Non-EU doesn't automatically mean a hard border. How much of a hard border is there around CH? Nope, that's been provided for, to the extent that's possible so far. See here for some relevant links. In the event of a no-deal Brexit, and until the agreement that has been reached earlier this year expires in December 2020, the British are in an even better position WRT Switzerland than under FMOP. Acquired rights of those already here persist while those wanting to come are no longer subject to most requirements that may lead to a denial now (until the pool of permits has been used up, but I bet in such a case the pool of available permits will undoubtedly and magically increase on short notice).

"Non-EU doesn't automatically mean a hard border. How much of a hard border is there around CH?"
Well unlike CH, Ireland is not in Schwengen so there are already border controls for people between Ireland and the EU, non-EUs require an extra Irish visa in addition to the Schwengen visa.
CH is not in any sort of EU Customs Union so there is a hard border for goods; try driving over the border in a truck!

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Non-EU doesn't automatically mean a hard border. How much of a hard border is there around CH?

CH is not a valid example as it's within the Schengen area, which reminds me of this point...

	Quote:
	Ireland did not sign up to the Schengen Agreement because it "would not be in the interest of Ireland to have a situation where the common travel area with Britain would be ended and Ireland would impose both exit and entry controls on persons travelling between here and Britain and, in addition, on the land frontier".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

Moving forward, and particularly if Ireland do decide to join the Schengen area in the future, a more valid comparison would be the border between Poland and Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland...Ukraine_border

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	CH is not a valid example as it's within the Schengen area, which reminds me of this point... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area Moving forward, and particularly if Ireland do decide to join the Schengen area in the future, a more valid comparison would be the border between Poland and Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland...Ukraine_border

There is no valid comparison with NI because there is no other situation where all the citizens of one country are also citizens of the other country! With few exceptions everyone born in NI is an Irish citizen by birth and that includes the Unionists! People in NI simply apply for an Irish passport they don’t have to do anything to claim citizenship.

	Quote:	marton
	Well unlike CH, Ireland is not in Schwengen

You're right, the German parts of CH (at least) are very much into it!*




*usually spelled a little differently...

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	There is no valid comparison with NI because there is no other situation where all the citizens of one country are also citizens of the other country!

Good point well made.

[Clocker]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	RIP Freedom of Movement

	Quote:	marton
	Ireland is not in Schengen so they already have border checks for people between Ireland and the rest of the EU.

Freedom of movement in the sense that EU citizens can still live and work in Ireland and Irish citizens can do so in the EU, will not disappear with a hard border.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	marton
	"Non-EU doesn't automatically mean a hard border. How much of a hard border is there around CH?" Well unlike CH, Ireland is not in Schwengen so there are already border controls for people between Ireland and the EU, non-EUs require an extra Irish visa in addition to the Schwengen visa.

Neither is the UK, Brexit changes nothing in that regard.

	Quote:	marton
	"Non-EU doesn't automatically mean a hard border. How much of a hard border is there around CH?" Well unlike CH, Ireland is not in Schwengen so there are already border controls for people between Ireland and the EU, non-EUs require an extra Irish visa in addition to the Schwengen visa. CH is not in any sort of EU Customs Union so there is a hard border for goods; try driving over the border in a truck!

As CH is in both Schengen and the Single Market this minimises the border requirements.

A UK without a deal would be in the same position as - say - Russia. Try driving over that EU external border.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:
	As CH is in [..] the Single Market this minimises the border requirements.

It isn't, the vote in 1992 didn't pass. Hence the need for the Bilaterale.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	It isn't, the vote in 1992 didn't pass. Hence the need for the Bilaterale.

Actually it is, at least for goods.

	Quote:
	Switzerland is neither an EU nor EEA member but is part of the single market

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

It is, however, not in customs union (although almost all goods except agricultural are duty free) and the EU cross border VAT regime does not apply. Hence the need for a (relatively simple) customs border.

[marton]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Right because Ireland would not veto such a move.... you need to learn a lot more about how the EU works.

Border checks 77EFU are Qualified majority voting.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	marton
	Border checks 77EFU are Qualified majority voting.

Rarely used and most certainly not in this case, but believe what you want.

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	Art. 4 of Regulation (EU) No 2016/1624 (European Border and Coast Guard Regulation) requires EU countries to establish effective, efficient and coordinated border management at the external EU borders.

But how many actually do that?

And the likes of Hungary, Italy etc are taking a lot of flak for even trying. Including from the EU itself and from governments of individual counries.

So obviosuly this regulation is open to a lot of interpretation.

It would be pretty hypocritical if it was somehow decided Ireland was the only country that actually had no choice in the matter and was forced to roll out the barbed wire.

[dandi]

	Quote:	amogles
	But how many actually do that? And the likes of Hungary, Italy etc are taking a lot of flak for even trying.

You're confusing movement of people with movement of goods. Italy and Hungary and all other EU countries implement quite effective border checks for movement of goods

	Quote:	amogles
	But how many actually do that? And the likes of Hungary, Italy etc are taking a lot of flak for even trying. Including from the EU itself and from governments of individual counries.

Well if you actually think about where the EU's external borders are (CH, Norway etc. don't count), pretty well everyone. Have you ever changed from Schengen to non-Schengen gates at an airport for example? Hungary are criticised for imposing excessive checks on EU internal borders, not external.

The EU only has land borders with about 10 countries. Do you really think there isn't a pretty strict border control with Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Turkey...?

[amogles]

	Quote:
	The EU only has land borders with about 10 countries. Do you really think there isn't a pretty strict border control with Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Turkey...?

I was in Serbia two weeks ago. I didn't notice anything that I would classify as strict.

[dandi]

	Quote:	amogles
	I was in Serbia two weeks ago. I didn't notice anything that I would classify as strict.

Where and how did you cross the border on the way from Serbia back to the EU?

The discussion seems to be centering on how convenient it is to pop over borders within mainland Europe, either EU, non-EU, Schengen, etc., but isn't the issue with FMOP more to do with long term visits, work and residence?

Whether they check your passport or dismantle your car to or from your hollies is neither here nor there (and we can all join in pissing competitions about how difficult or easy it was for us), but settling, working and residing in these countries is the wider issue here.

[dandi]

This is how a border crossing from Serbia to Hungary looks like

https://goo.gl/maps/zX9Qwdny4EWdTNEW8

Notice the queue of cars and trucks

[amogles]

	Quote:	dandi
	Where and how did you cross the border on the way from Serbia back to the EU?

Bought a train ticket, got on the train.

The train stopped at some booney place near the border. A pair of uniformed guards walked through the train but didn't do very much. Then they got off the train and had a smoke with their mates. Yes, on the station platform.

That was it.