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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21681  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You seem to forget that the UK has at least in theory a parliamentary democracy and that after the advisory referendum a GE was held which failed to give a mandate to no party to carry out Brexit. So either the UK has a sovereign parliament to which control should be returned or not. And if there no sovereign parliament then control is handed to a rabble!
Yes, we seem to have become a direct democracy overnight - I can't wait for all issues to be put to the public...
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  #21682  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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He’s basically bolted the doors of parliament and shut down any opposition in order to force his no deal through. That doesn’t take political talent or any kind of balls.

Anyone ‘can do it’ if you pull rank and remove any risk of opposition.
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Opposition of what? of the minority that still can not accept a referendum outcome?

isn't this what Britain wanted?
This...

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Opposition to the prorogation of Parliament. This is nothing, technically, to do with the referendum. Folk aren't keen on an unelected PM basically doing as he pleases without checks and balances.

Would you like to enlighten me as to why leaving is so good? I've not had any proper answers yet.

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It isn’t good, it’s rubbish. But that’s not his question. His question is whether Britain voted for this, which they did.
Still not getting it seems. So...

This.

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Britain voted to leave the EU. Not a no deal and certainly not a prorogued parliament and the hellish circus that is Johnson.

V asked opposition to what? I answered: prorogation, not leaving. Maybe read back a few more posts before leaping to someone's defence eh?

Nowhere, not on the ballot paper nor the bloody bus, was this shitstorm written.
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Exactly.
Somehow I think the point still hasn't been understood.

OK, so in simple terms: It is insane that during such a contentious period of politics which would benefit from input from ALL sides, an unelected PM has chosen to drastically shorten the time that it can be debated in order that he can force his no deal through.

Do Brexit, if that's what the slim majority currently bouncing off the walls wants but FFS, don't do it in the style of some tin-pot dictator. It will almost certainly come back to bite.

PS - still nobody has come up with advantages of leaving the EU.
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  #21683  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:10
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You seem to forget that the UK has at least in theory a parliamentary democracy and that after the advisory referendum a GE was held which failed to give a mandate to no party to carry out Brexit. So either the UK has a sovereign parliament to which control should be returned or not. And if there no sovereign parliament then control is handed to a rabble!
The government promised to respect the result of the voting and would act according to it. 1.3 Million more people voted for a leave giving it the democratic majority, and thus the government started up the process to leave the EU.

So tell me what am I forgetting?

To me it seems you do not want to see it like this since you just don't like it.
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  #21684  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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PS - still nobody has come up with advantages of leaving the EU.
When I still lived in the Netherlands I always was in favour of leaving the EU, and I knew it would not all be about advantages, it also is about feelings, to get rid of the despicable monster the EU has become in my eyes. And I would have no problem with paying a price for that. Some things are about more than just economics. And given the results of the vote I am not the only one feeling like this.
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  #21685  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The government promised to respect the result of the voting and would act according to it. 1.3 Million more people voted for a leave giving it the democratic majority, and thus the government started up the process to leave the EU.

So tell me what am I forgetting?

To me it seems you do not want to see it like this since you just don't like it.
Remind us all of what "Leave" meant. Specifically.

What EXACTLY were all these millions of people voting for? Specifically.

How does that relate to the current bind that the country is in today?
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  #21686  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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When I still lived in the Netherlands I always was in favour of leaving the EU, and I knew it would not all be about advantages, it also is about feelings, to get rid of the despicable monster the EU has become in my eyes. And I would have no problem with paying a price for that. Some things are about more than just economics. And given the results of the vote I am not the only one feeling like this.
So Brexit is all about making a few (Union) Jack-waving, patriotic Home-Counties-dwellers feel good?

I see.
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  #21687  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Remind us all of what "Leave" meant. Specifically.

What EXACTLY were all these millions of people voting for? Specifically.

How does that relate to the current bind that the country is in today?
They voted for leave, they did not vote for a no-deal Brexit just like they did not vote for a deal.

Funny how so many people are like "we did not vote for this mess", well you also did not vote for no mess. And thinking that a Brexit would go smooth and with a very nice deal is naive. None the less, people who voted and believed such still casted their vote to a simple question: Leave: Yes or No. If they wanted more they should have made the referendum about more, like "We want the government to negotiate and present us with a deal no matter how good or bad in 2 years on which we will vote again" But nobody did such.
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  #21688  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Britain voted to leave the EU.
Actually I believe that England (except London) and Wales voted to leave the EU.
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  #21689  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:27
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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When I still lived in the Netherlands I always was in favour of leaving the EU, and I knew it would not all be about advantages, it also is about feelings, to get rid of the despicable monster the EU has become in my eyes. And I would have no problem with paying a price for that. Some things are about more than just economics. And given the results of the vote I am not the only one feeling like this.
Funny you should mention "despicable monster". The UK seems to have shed one and the one that's grown back is bigger and even more despicable.

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They voted for leave, they did not vote for a no-deal Brexit just like they did not vote for a deal.
So it wasn't clear at all. Exactly.

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Funny how so many people are like "we did not vote for this mess", well you also did not vote for no mess. And thinking that a Brexit would go smooth and with a very nice deal is naive. None the less, people who voted and believed such still cast their vote to a simple question: Leave: Yes or No. If they wanted more they should have made the referendum about more, like "We want the government to negotiate and present us with a deal no matter how good or bad in 2 years on which we will vote again" But nobody did such.
You mean they should have put more detail into the referendum question with a caveat that it could all go to shit because nobody had a sketch of a plan from the outset and that, really, it was just a vanity project by Cameron to keep him elected which nobody considered further than a Remain vote? And if Leave wins they have not clue how to implement it without royally shafting the UK in such an unpopular way the unelected incumbent PM will have to restrict the very sovereignty that a Leave vote was supposed to provide in abundance in order to scratch together some kind of plan to crash out of the EU with zero benefit to the UK?

That would have been a lot of words on a ballot paper, right?
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  #21690  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So Brexit is all about making a few (Union) Jack-waving, patriotic Home-Counties-dwellers feel good?

I see.
The most short explanation possible: Brexit is about following the wish of the people as expressed in the results of the voting.

And Boris is doing just that by using legal methods.

If people think a PM should not be able to do something like this, than they should not have such instruments in place. You can't give a lumberjack a saw and send him the woods and expect him to not use the saw.
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  #21691  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:35
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Actually I believe that England (except London) and Wales voted to leave the EU.
I actually do believe that it never was about regional results but only about the whole. Scotland is a member of a union and the population of the union as a whole has decided, if Scotland feels this is wrong they should start progress on leaving the UK and start talking about joining the EU in future.
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  #21692  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The most short explanation possible: Brexit is about following the wish of the people as expressed in the results of the voting.

And Boris is doing just that by using legal methods.

If people think a PM should not be able to do something like this, than they should not have such instruments in place. You can't give a lumberjack a saw and send him the woods and expect him to not use the saw.
The kicker here is that the words that the leave supporters either on this forum or in the media are using is echoing the methods that they were squealing about that the EU was doing.

Unelected people forcing things through, no matter how unpopular, no control, bending rules, hiding behind legal language, blah, blah, blah.

When the EU does it, it's deplorable; when Boris Johnson does it, it's heroic, decisive and upholding democracy.
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  #21693  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This...




Somehow I think the point still hasn't been understood.

OK, so in simple terms: It is insane that during such a contentious period of politics which would benefit from input from ALL sides, an unelected PM has chosen to drastically shorten the time that it can be debated in order that he can force his no deal through.

Do Brexit, if that's what the slim majority currently bouncing off the walls wants but FFS, don't do it in the style of some tin-pot dictator. It will almost certainly come back to bite.

PS - still nobody has come up with advantages of leaving the EU.
The point is perfectly understood.

Both here and in the UK, the more there is of looking down on the little people, patting them on the head and saying "calm down, calm down, you didn't actually mean this you know, you're not clever enough to, see ? you're just a bit thick really. What you really wanted was for us to tell you what you wanted, which we're doing."

There was a referendum in the Uk. Bollocks to "under consititutional law X it was advisory etc etc rulebook rulebook". The person in charge of the country - Cameron - said "tell us whether you want to leave or stay. We will do what you say".

The country (all the countries in the UK between them as they are one voting block), said they wanted to leave.

In the three years that have followed the parental style MP's have made sure they didnt allow that to happen, going directly against the referendum result.

Now there is someone in charge who genuinely believes that the result of the referendum has to be implemented. it has to. That may mean an agreed exit, it may be crashing out, but he believes the importance of the people's decision trumps the supposed higher knowledge of MP's.

As a result, he's taking us out. which is what we said we would do.

Is it a good idea ? almost certainly not, and with no deal, it could be a terrible idea. Is it better to stay in Europe - yes (in my opinion).

However what trumps both of those is that if you give a decision to the people and they make a decision, you can't then take it away again. That breaks democracy. Carping on about "yes but the people didn't vote for flavour X, Y, Z" is both insulting and undemocratic.

Its the governments problem about the irish backstop, the planes flying, the trade deal and all the rest. but they have to do the people's wish and the people's wish was clear: Leave.

and the 48% ? Who came second in last years Grand National ? You can't remember ? But why do we only focus on the winner ? Shouldn't both be on the winners rostrum if it was a particularly close race ?
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  #21694  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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When I still lived in the Netherlands I always was in favour of leaving the EU, and I knew it would not all be about advantages, it also is about feelings, to get rid of the despicable monster the EU has become in my eyes. And I would have no problem with paying a price for that. Some things are about more than just economics. And given the results of the vote I am not the only one feeling like this.
To me the EU is a Puppy dog compared to the two despicable monsters called Donald Trump & Boris Johnson.
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  #21695  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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an unelected PM has chosen to drastically shorten the time that it can be debated in order that he can force his no deal through.
But isn't he simply taking over where May left off as in turn she took over from where Cameron took off? It was Cameron who got the ball rolling.
Should May's deal be put through a fourth time, under Johnson, just for sheer heck of it? I wonder what the result would be. Even closer than the previous three times, because apparently no deal is the only other option left?

Cameron didn't like the result and so didn't want anything to do with implementing it. May tried but took far too long. It is only natural that Johnson has to now act with speed and as Edwin pointed out a short while ago, legally. It's not good for the UK to delay again, at least nothing beyond the end of the year. Even as a supporter of Brexit I would accept one further delay until 31st December, if it means there will be a tidy and fully acceptable deal - something which May's deal is not. Anything beyond that though, the UK is a laughing stock and the 'Remain' side are simply further extending the horrific damage they have already caused.

There may be some outrage from the 'Remain' supporters naturally, about the way Johnson is going about things. But given that no one else, particularly from 'Remain' has come up with any workable solution, their petty outrage is there because 'Remain' just want to stall and stall so eventually (they hope) remaining becomes a possibility.

The real outrage is that Brexit still hasn't happened and we are in this circus as some people call it, but not because of Johnson. It is not his circus. No, the curcus has been created by the constant moaning on from the 'Remain' side over the last three years and two months.
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  #21696  
Old 29.08.2019, 10:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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But isn't he simply taking over where May left off as in turn she took over from where Cameron took off? It was Cameron who got the ball rolling.
Should May's deal be put through a fourth time, under Johnson, just for sheer heck of it? I wonder what the result would be. Even closer than the previous three times, because apparently no deal is the only other option left?

Cameron didn't like the result and so didn't want anything to do with implementing it. May tried but took far too long. It is only natural that Johnson has to now act with speed and as Edwin pointed out a short while ago, legally. It's not good for the UK to delay again, at least nothing beyond the end of the year. Even as a supporter of Brexit I would accept one further delay until 31st December, if it means there will be a tidy and fully acceptable deal - something which May's deal is not. Anything beyond that though, the UK is a laughing stock and the 'Remain' side are simply further extending the horrific damage they have already caused.

There may be some outrage from the 'Remain' supporters naturally, about the way Johnson is going about things. But given that no one else, particularly from 'Remain' has come up with any workable solution, the outrage is there because 'Remain' just want to stall and stall so eventually (they hope) remaining becomes a possibility.

The real outrage is that Brexit still hasn't happened and we are in this circus as some people call it, but not because of Johnson. It is not his circus. No, the curcus has been created by the constant moaning on from the 'Remain' side over the last three years and two months.
Of one thing we can no doubt all agree the Brexit result has made the UK the laughing stock on the world
stage and as for bringing back control to the mother of all Parliaments, don't make me laugh, please !!
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  #21697  
Old 29.08.2019, 11:06
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To me the EU is a Puppy dog compared to the two despicable monsters called Donald Trump & Boris Johnson.
Just like I am not a great fan of Donald Trump I am also not a great fan of Nicolás Maduro. Both persons however are completely irrelevant to this topic, so how about we don't bring in more irrelevant people and stick to the case?
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Old 29.08.2019, 11:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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But isn't he simply taking over where May left off as in turn she took over from where Cameron took off? It was Cameron who got the ball rolling.
Should May's deal be put through a fourth time, under Johnson, just for sheer heck of it? I wonder what the result would be. Even closer than the previous three times, because apparently no deal is the only other option left?

Cameron didn't like the result and so didn't want anything to do with implementing it. May tried but took far too long. It is only natural that Johnson has to now act with speed and as Edwin pointed out a short while ago, legally. It's not good for the UK to delay again, at least nothing beyond the end of the year. Even as a supporter of Brexit I would accept one further delay until 31st December, if it means there will be a tidy and fully acceptable deal - something which May's deal is not. Anything beyond that though, the UK is a laughing stock and the 'Remain' side are simply further extending the horrific damage they have already caused.

There may be some outrage from the 'Remain' supporters naturally, about the way Johnson is going about things. But given that no one else, particularly from 'Remain' has come up with any workable solution, the outrage is there because 'Remain' just want to stall and stall so eventually (they hope) remaining becomes a possibility.

The real outrage is that Brexit still hasn't happened and we are in this circus as some people call it, but not because of Johnson. It is not his circus. No, the curcus has been created by the constant moaning on from the 'Remain' side over the last three years and two months.
Seriously, you just think it's solely remainers causing all the delays, discussion and discourse?

Leave-voting MPs have also been voicing their concerns about the details of the departure as well as the no-deal scenario, not to mention the merits of the shutting of parliament, yes it's legal but highly contentious. It's not just the general population that has grave concerns about how it's all unfolding but MPs too, and it spans across both Leave and Remain voters.
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Old 29.08.2019, 11:10
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Seriously, you just think it's solely remainers causing all the delays, discussion and discourse?
Yes, it is blindingly obvious that about 99% of the delays are caused by the 'remainers'.
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Old 29.08.2019, 11:10
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Except that Trump is forever sticking his unwelcome nose into British affairs and it sticks out a
mile that Boris and Trump have more in common than their blond hair !!
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