The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Remind us all of what "Leave" meant. Specifically.

Somehow I don't think it meant eternal extensions to the deadline while parliament fail to decide anything because nobody in it is prepared to shift their position by one iota.

	Quote:	John William
	]Except that Trump is forever sticking his unwelcome nose into British affairs and it sticks out a mile that Boris and Trump have more in common than their blond hair !!

Still completely irrelevant.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	an unelected PM has chosen to drastically shorten the time that it can be debated in order that he can force his no deal through.

Other Prime Ministers who didn't achieve their position through an election: Theresa May, Gordon Brown, John Major, James Callaghan, Alec Douglas-Home, Harold Macmillan, Anthony Eden, Winston Churchill, Neville Chamberlain... Ever since the title of Prime Minister was created we've had more achieve it without a general election than with.

And since William Hague introduced it, the Tory party leader is elected by members as well as chairmen and MPs, so Boris received more votes for the leadership than most Conservative leaders.

Wouldn't it just be simpler to say you don't like Boris, don't like what he's doing and would prefer that there was some parliamentary mechanism to stop him? When you start picking out things you don't like as undemocratic, where does it end?

The central dichotomy of our democracy is whether it is representational or delegational? Are our politicians there to do our bidding or serve our interests? In reality, it's a bit of both and sometimes some of us won't like the result of that.ve their position through an election: Theresa May, Gordon Brown, John Major, James Callaghan, Alec Douglas-Home, Harold Macmillan, Anthony Eden, Winston Churchill, Neville Chamberlain... Ever since the title of Prime Minister was created we've had more achieve it without a general election than with.

And since William Hague introduced it, the Tory party leader is elected by members as well as chairmen and MPs, so Boris received more votes for the leadership than most Conservative leaders.

Wouldn't it just be simpler to say you don't like Boris, don't like what he's doing and would prefer that there was some parliamentary mechanism to stop him? When you start picking out things you don't like as undemocratic, where does it end?

	Quote:	Clocker
	Yes, it is blindingly obvious that about 99% of the delays are caused by the 'remainers'.

How do you get to that opinion?

If you have read across the news sites over the past 3 years, there are a not-insignificant number of cases of Leave-MPs not supporting the PM on various issues. These cases seem to have increased as the no-deal scenario has become more apparent.

There are also news sites which are happy to 100% blame "Leftie Remoaner Libs" for clicks and shares but, hey.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Other Prime Ministers who didn't achieve their position through an election: Theresa May, Gordon Brown, John Major, James Callaghan, Alec Douglas-Home, Harold Macmillan, Anthony Eden, Winston Churchill, Neville Chamberlain... Ever since the title of Prime Minister was created we've had more achieve it without a general election than with. And since William Hague introduced it, the Tory party leader is elected by members as well as chairmen and MPs, so Boris received more votes for the leadership than most Conservative leaders. Wouldn't it just be simpler to say you don't like Boris, don't like what he's doing and would prefer that there was some parliamentary mechanism to stop him? When you start picking out things you don't like as undemocratic, where does it end? The central dichotomy of our democracy is whether it is representational or delegational? Are our politicians there to do our bidding or serve our interests? In reality, it's a bit of both and sometimes some of us won't like the result of that.ve their position through an election: Theresa May, Gordon Brown, John Major, James Callaghan, Alec Douglas-Home, Harold Macmillan, Anthony Eden, Winston Churchill, Neville Chamberlain... Ever since the title of Prime Minister was created we've had more achieve it without a general election than with. And since William Hague introduced it, the Tory party leader is elected by members as well as chairmen and MPs, so Boris received more votes for the leadership than most Conservative leaders. Wouldn't it just be simpler to say you don't like Boris, don't like what he's doing and would prefer that there was some parliamentary mechanism to stop him? When you start picking out things you don't like as undemocratic, where does it end?

Well, I guess you wouldn't have gone to the monumental effort of writing such a defensive post for the Tories if the vote had tipped over to Remain.

I don't trust Boris, it's true. But more than that, I don't think he's the one actually in control. Dominic Cummings will be the one behind all this and BoJo is just doing as he's told. PM my arse.

	Quote:
	The government promised to respect the result of the voting and would act according to it. 1.3 Million more people voted for a leave giving it the democratic majority, and thus the government started up the process to leave the EU. So tell me what am I forgetting?

One session of government cannot make the next session beholden to their decisions, for a start.

[Clocker]

	Quote:
	there are a not-insignificant number of cases of Leave-MPs not supporting the PM on various issues.

No 'Leave' MP will support half-in, half-out.
Supporting half-in, half-out would mean being in favour of 'Remain'.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	And Boris is doing just that by using legal methods.

What legal method would that be exactly? There is no legal method, because there is no constitution! You failed to appreciate that the entire thing is based on precedent and the assumption that people will act in good faith, that is all.

Where does it say that the speaker must act with impartiality? No where and as we have seen when his actions are questionable there is no way to hold him to account.

Where does it say that the Supreme Court cannot rule on the constitutionality of an act of parliament? No where, it’s just a British tradition that because they have a sovereign parliament it cannot do something unconstitutional. Which by the way is contrary to the concept of the division of powers enshrined in most written constitutions.

Where does it say that referenda are advisory in the UK? No where and in fact up to the 1950s or there about they were thought to be illegal. But today the assumption is that they must be advisory if you have a sovereign parliament.

Up to the early part of the last century, the House Of Lords - the upper classes, controlled the UK. And when that became unacceptable a new concept was peddled to the people: of course you live in a strong democracy, of course you’ve got a constitution, it’s unwritten and that’s the great advantage of it - it’s very flexible... yes it really is!

A basic principle of modern democracy is the idea of an elected parliament holding the government to account, in fact that is what PM question time in the House of Commons is all about.... or at least we thought so, until yesterday.

So tell us the next time they have a Labour Government who decides to use your ‘legal method’ plus the Boris precedent to circumvent parliament, will you be queuing up to support their actions?

	Quote:	Clocker
	No 'Leave' MP will support half-in, half-out. Supporting half-in, half-out would mean being in favour of 'Remain'.

Hardly. It would be in favour of not totally ing the country for a quick win.

	Quote:	Clocker
	No 'Leave' MP will support half-in, half-out. Supporting half-in, half-out would mean being in favour of 'Remain'.

I didn't say "half-in half-out".

[bigblue2]

can we put this to bed once and for all, NO uk prime minister has ever been elected via a general election, EVER

you only vote for who you want your local MP to be, the mp's and party members vote for who they want to be the party leader, and if that party has the most seats in parliament the party leader becomes PM.

Boris was elected PM exactly the same way every other PM has been.

[Clocker]

	Quote:
	I didn't say "half-in half-out".

No, but you said that there were Leave MPs not supporting the PM on various issues. Some of the issues were half-in, half-out situations, hence my remark.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	What legal method would that be exactly? There is no legal method, because there is no constitution! You failed to appreciate that the entire thing is based on precedent and the assumption that people will act in good faith, that is all. Where does it say that the speaker must act with impartiality? No where and as we have seen when his actions are questionable there is no way to hold him to account. Where does it say that the Supreme Court cannot rule on the constitutionality of an act of parliament? No where, it’s just a British tradition that because they have a sovereign parliament it cannot do something unconstitutional. Which by the way is contrary to the concept of the division of powers enshrined in most written constitutions. Where does it say that referenda are advisory in the UK? No where and in fact up to the 1950s or there about they were thought to be illegal. But today the assumption is that they must be advisory if you have a sovereign parliament. Up to the early part of the last century, the House Of Lords - the upper classes, controlled the UK. And when that became unacceptable a new concept was peddled to the people: of course you live in a strong democracy, of course you’ve got a constitution, it’s unwritten and that’s the great advantage of it - it’s very flexible... yes it really is! A basic principle of modern democracy is the idea of an elected parliament holding the government to account, in fact that is what PM question time in the House of Commons is all about.... or at least we thought so, until yesterday. So tell us the next time they have a Labour Government who decides to use your ‘legal method’ plus the Boris precedent to circumvent parliament, will you be queuing up to support their actions?

Unless Boris did break the law he is using legal methods.

So tell me, what laws did Boris break?

	Quote:
	One session of government cannot make the next session beholden to their decisions, for a start.

Who said they could?

New governments however chose voluntarily to follow up.

	Quote:	Clocker
	No 'Leave' MP will support half-in, half-out. Supporting half-in, half-out would mean being in favour of 'Remain'.

Complete rubbish.

Most of those leave MPs and other Brexit campaigners were promising us we would remain in the Single Market and in customs union. You can find video of BJ speaking in favour of the Single Market as recently 2 October 2016.

[Clocker]

	Quote:
	Most of those leave MPs and other Brexit campaigners were promising us we would remain in the Single Market and in customs union.

What nonsense.
Apart from the fact things that have moved on somewhat in over three years, how would remaining in the customs union be remotely acceptable? It basically means being tied to the EU mechanism forever more.

	Quote:	Clocker
	What nonsense. Apart from the fact things that have moved on somewhat in over three years, how would remaining in the customs union be remotely acceptable? It basically means being tied to the EU mechanism forever more.

Apart from the fact that what I wrote is completely true (go on - google it for yourself), I like your argument that a fresh referendum is needed as things have moved on so much over the last 3 years.

[Clocker]

	Quote:
	I like your argument that a fresh referendum is needed as things have moved on so much over the last 3 years.

Almost funny.

	Quote:	Clocker
	Almost funny.

That's what I thought.

	Quote:
	Who said they could?

You did, hope this helps jog the memory banks...

	Quote:
	The government promised to respect the result of the voting and would act according to it.

There is absolutely no imperative for future governments to implement anything except their duty to act in the best interest of the British people, which, unfortunately, is sometimes against the wishes of the majority of the British people.