The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	Mikers
	Exactly.

While true this doesn't have anything to do with the prorogation of parliament. Quoting random words out of context doesn't a counter argument make.

I'm still not hearing any decent, logical, rational arguments for leaving.

	Quote:
	The most short explanation possible: Brexit is about following the wish of the people as expressed in the results of the voting. And Boris is doing just that by using legal methods. If people think a PM should not be able to do something like this, than they should not have such instruments in place. You can't give a lumberjack a saw and send him the woods and expect him to not use the saw.

Boris is using bully boy tactics because he can. Not because he should.

The UK did not vote to have their unelected PM turn dictator.

	Quote:
	You did, hope this helps jog the memory banks...

Rubbish.

You are putting words in my mouth that I nowhere expressed, just stop doing that, read what I write instead of making up your own truth.

	Quote:
	Boris is using bully boy tactics because he can. Not because he should. The UK did not vote to have their unelected PM turn dictator.

Oh they did not vote on so many things..

They did not even vote on ratifying the Single European Act, yet here they are...

And you might want to look up "dictator" in your dictionary.

	Quote:
	Rubbish. You are putting words in my mouth that I nowhere expressed, just stop doing that, read what I write instead of making up your own truth.

Sorry to break it to you, all truth is personal, not universal.

Maybe you can get back to the point now though. What a government 2 PMs ago said is totally legally irrelevant to a PM two governments down the line, as I have now clarified to you.

[Mikers]

	Quote:
	I'm still not hearing any decent, logical, rational arguments for leaving.

Because the country democratically voted for it.

	Quote:	Mikers
	Because the country democratically voted for it.

Nice try, but nope. Hopefully a Leaver will be honest enough to answer this soon, we've only been waiting 3 years.

	Quote:
	Sorry to break it to you, all truth is personal, not universal. Maybe you can get back to the point now though. What a government 2 PMs ago said is totally legally irrelevant to a PM two governments down the line, as I have now clarified to you.

I never said new governments can't make up their own course, I said they chose to stick to Brexit.

Now people who for some reason lack the ability to understand what they read keep insisting I said otherwise, and when I go against that I suddenly have to stick to the point?

ROFL

	Quote:
	I never said new governments can't make up their own course, I said they chose to stick to Brexit. Now people who for some reason lack the ability to understand what they read keep insisting I said otherwise, and when I go against that I suddenly have to stick to the point? ROFL

Boring. Tot ziens, Eddie.

	Quote:
	Oh they did not vote on so many things.. They did not even vote on ratifying the Single European Act, yet here they are... And you might want to look up "dictator" in your dictionary.

Yes but we are talking about one thing. And it's not that one.
Dictator: a ruler with total control over a country. Clue: what Boris has done with prorogation. Taking said country by force is "typical" but not always, before you cunningly try to trip me up with All The Words. HTH

	Quote:	Mikers
	Because the country democratically voted for it.

You know, in all eleventy billion pages of this thread, no-one has been able to come up with a better "argument" than this. It's akin to telling someone "because I said so"; it's what my Grandad wanted, by jingo we should be able to have bananas with a curve in them; Europe is lovely and hot in the summer but you wouldn't want to live there would you because the food's all different and they only talk in forrin.

The country may have voted to leave the EU but as countless others have explained, and explained so well by Sandgrounder's post above, the UK (yep, all of it) did not make an informed choice. And it was three years ago, and the goalposts have shifted so far we're now on a new field playing an entirely new game.

So, I ask again: who has got, and can make, a serious argument as to why leaving the EU is better than staying in?

	Quote:
	So, I ask again: who has got, and can make, a serious argument as to why leaving the EU is better than staying in?

This, exactly. Game, Set and Match.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	OK, so in simple terms: It is insane that during such a contentious period of politics which would benefit from input from ALL sides, an unelected PM has chosen to drastically shorten the time that it can be debated in order that he can force his no deal through.

It's also insane because it suspends all other business, including progress of essential acts, some of which have legislated time constraints.

Case in point:

The Northern Ireland Act 2019...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/22/enacted

...and the Domestic Abuse Bill.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/emilyashton...bfsharetwitter

	Quote:
	The government promised to respect the result of the voting and would act according to it. 1.3 Million more people voted for a leave giving it the democratic majority, and thus the government started up the process to leave the EU. So tell me what am I forgetting?

Simple.
The government which made that promise was dissolved on 3 May, 2017.

In the 2017 GE and the 2019 European elections, the majority of the electorate voted for remain supporting parties.

FMF, Edwin... lovely as the groans are, what are the arguments for leaving ? The reasons why leaving is Good and why Johnson doing this awful thing is anything other than a political ramraid?


Debate. Change minds. Go on. Millions of us would love to know.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	So, I ask again: who has got, and can make, a serious argument as to why leaving the EU is better than staying in?

The time for this dicussion was before the vote. We had that discussion then. The discussion after the vote should have been, what is the best way to leave, what sort of agreement or deal do we want with the EU (and with everybody else) and what else do we want now that we no longer have the EU telling us what we can't do.

People trying to sidestep that discussion by continuously trying to reopen the previous one is precisely what is cauing this blockade in the first place. It's a bit like vegans discussing the best way to marinade a BBQ.

	Quote:	amogles
	The time for this dicussion was before the vote. We had that discussion then. The discussion after the vote should have been, what is the best way to leave, what sort of agreement or deal do we want with the EU (and with everybody else) and what else do we want now that we no longer have the EU telling us what we can't do. People trying to sidestep that discussion by continuously trying to reopen the previous one is precisely what is cauing this blockade in the first place. It's a bit like vegans discussing the best way to marinade a BBQ.

I'm not insane, I'm well aware a discussion on a forum is not going to affect political change, however... no-one seems prepared to answer my question. I can only reasonably draw one conclusion from that. No?


Vegans would marinate BBQ overnight, obvs. They're not barbarians.

	Quote:
	So, I ask again: who has got, and can make, a serious argument as to why leaving the EU is better than staying in?

The UK never really wanted to be in the EU, when they joined in 1973 they still had a little power and prestige left over from WWII and the days of the Empire and always thought they were a cut above the rest; you could argue this is still the case.


The UK always wanted special clauses and opt outs to almost all the treaties, they negotiated a special reduction on what they pay into the EU, they have never really been a team player and the EU is about team playing.


If you join a club, you try to abide by it's rules, the UK never would, nor never will fully accept rules and regulations made by outside people so unfortunately the EU will never work for the UK in they way they want or think it should work for them, so there will be a continual problem of opting out and blocking various policies that the EU wish to proceed with.


The UK has some difficultly in accepting the major roles played by Germany and France in the EU who seem to make most of the important decisions, size and colour of banana's aside.


In my opinion, the UK will be initially worse off outside the EU but it will suit their unique personality much better and in the long run, it is probably the best thing to do.



The UK is not part of Europe, it has an island culture which over rides everything and the EU cannot understand this, nor never will.


It can be compared to our everyday life in the simile that we either abide by the rules in place or we get fined and sent to jail. Jail is not for ever, we eventually will get out and hopefully as a better entity.

	Quote:
	The UK never really wanted to be in the EU, when they joined in 1973 they still had a little power and prestige left over from WWII and the days of the Empire and always thought they were a cut above the rest; you could argue this is still the case. The UK always wanted special clauses and opt outs to almost all the treaties, they negotiated a special reduction on what they pay into the EU, they have never really been a team player and the EU is about team playing. If you join a club, you try to abide by it's rules, the UK never would, nor never will fully accept rules and regulations made by outside people so unfortunately the EU will never work for the UK in they way they want or think it should work for them, so there will be a continual problem of opting out and blocking various policies that the EU wish to proceed with. The UK has some difficultly in accepting the major roles played by Germany and France in the EU who seem to make most of the important decisions, size and colour of banana's aside. In my opinion, the UK will be initially worse off outside the EU but it will suit their unique personality much better and in the long run, it is probably the best thing to do. The UK is not part of Europe, it has an island culture which over rides everything and the EU cannot understand this, nor never will. It can be compared to our everyday life in the simile that we either abide by the rules in place or we get fined and sent to jail. Jail is not for ever, we eventually will get out and hopefully as a better entity.

Thank you.

[bowlie]

I think we’re all insane. That is the only rational explanation.

	Quote:
	It can be compared to our everyday life in the simile that we either abide by the rules in place or we get fined and sent to jail. Jail is not for ever, we eventually will get out and hopefully as a better entity.

I guess this is all dependent on the future leadership of the UK because the current selection of numpties certainly don't have the minerals to carry it forward. They can whine about "de Remoaners" and other excuses but, so far, they've not been able to stitch together any semblance of a plan. The best the PM has come up with is to lock the doors and keep everyone out.

I think there will be a protracted period of a stagnated nation, hamstrung by useless governments woefully ill-equipped to deal with a world which is unrecognisable in every aspect from trading to laws to communications from the early 70s, i.e. the last time the country was going it alone.

The populist and rousing speeches will give way to the biting reality quite quickly.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	bowlie
	Actually I believe that England (except London) and Wales voted to leave the EU.

You believe wrong and this is an oft quoted thing that always gets my back up because Manchester and Liverpool, amongst other northern towns and cities such as Harrogate, Leeds, York and Newcastle, voted Remain.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36616028