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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21721  
Old 29.08.2019, 12:35
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I never said new governments can't make up their own course, I said they chose to stick to Brexit.

Now people who for some reason lack the ability to understand what they read keep insisting I said otherwise, and when I go against that I suddenly have to stick to the point?

ROFL
Boring. Tot ziens, Eddie.
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  #21722  
Old 29.08.2019, 12:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Oh they did not vote on so many things..

They did not even vote on ratifying the Single European Act, yet here they are...

And you might want to look up "dictator" in your dictionary.

Yes but we are talking about one thing. And it's not that one.
Dictator: a ruler with total control over a country. Clue: what Boris has done with prorogation. Taking said country by force is "typical" but not always, before you cunningly try to trip me up with All The Words. HTH

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Because the country democratically voted for it.
You know, in all eleventy billion pages of this thread, no-one has been able to come up with a better "argument" than this. It's akin to telling someone "because I said so"; it's what my Grandad wanted, by jingo we should be able to have bananas with a curve in them; Europe is lovely and hot in the summer but you wouldn't want to live there would you because the food's all different and they only talk in forrin.

The country may have voted to leave the EU but as countless others have explained, and explained so well by Sandgrounder's post above, the UK (yep, all of it) did not make an informed choice. And it was three years ago, and the goalposts have shifted so far we're now on a new field playing an entirely new game.

So, I ask again: who has got, and can make, a serious argument as to why leaving the EU is better than staying in?
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  #21723  
Old 29.08.2019, 12:38
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So, I ask again: who has got, and can make, a serious argument as to why leaving the EU is better than staying in?
This, exactly. Game, Set and Match.
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  #21724  
Old 29.08.2019, 12:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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OK, so in simple terms: It is insane that during such a contentious period of politics which would benefit from input from ALL sides, an unelected PM has chosen to drastically shorten the time that it can be debated in order that he can force his no deal through.
It's also insane because it suspends all other business, including progress of essential acts, some of which have legislated time constraints.

Case in point:

The Northern Ireland Act 2019...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/22/enacted

...and the Domestic Abuse Bill.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/emilyashton...bfsharetwitter


Quote:
The government promised to respect the result of the voting and would act according to it. 1.3 Million more people voted for a leave giving it the democratic majority, and thus the government started up the process to leave the EU.

So tell me what am I forgetting?
Simple.
The government which made that promise was dissolved on 3 May, 2017.

In the 2017 GE and the 2019 European elections, the majority of the electorate voted for remain supporting parties.
  #21725  
Old 29.08.2019, 12:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

FMF, Edwin... lovely as the groans are, what are the arguments for leaving ? The reasons why leaving is Good and why Johnson doing this awful thing is anything other than a political ramraid?


Debate. Change minds. Go on. Millions of us would love to know.
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  #21726  
Old 29.08.2019, 12:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So, I ask again: who has got, and can make, a serious argument as to why leaving the EU is better than staying in?
The time for this dicussion was before the vote. We had that discussion then. The discussion after the vote should have been, what is the best way to leave, what sort of agreement or deal do we want with the EU (and with everybody else) and what else do we want now that we no longer have the EU telling us what we can't do.

People trying to sidestep that discussion by continuously trying to reopen the previous one is precisely what is cauing this blockade in the first place. It's a bit like vegans discussing the best way to marinade a BBQ.
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  #21727  
Old 29.08.2019, 12:56
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The time for this dicussion was before the vote. We had that discussion then. The discussion after the vote should have been, what is the best way to leave, what sort of agreement or deal do we want with the EU (and with everybody else) and what else do we want now that we no longer have the EU telling us what we can't do.

People trying to sidestep that discussion by continuously trying to reopen the previous one is precisely what is cauing this blockade in the first place. It's a bit like vegans discussing the best way to marinade a BBQ.
I'm not insane, I'm well aware a discussion on a forum is not going to affect political change, however... no-one seems prepared to answer my question. I can only reasonably draw one conclusion from that. No?


Vegans would marinate BBQ overnight, obvs. They're not barbarians.

Last edited by RufusB; 29.08.2019 at 12:57. Reason: Bbq
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  #21728  
Old 29.08.2019, 12:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So, I ask again: who has got, and can make, a serious argument as to why leaving the EU is better than staying in?



The UK never really wanted to be in the EU, when they joined in 1973 they still had a little power and prestige left over from WWII and the days of the Empire and always thought they were a cut above the rest; you could argue this is still the case.


The UK always wanted special clauses and opt outs to almost all the treaties, they negotiated a special reduction on what they pay into the EU, they have never really been a team player and the EU is about team playing.


If you join a club, you try to abide by it's rules, the UK never would, nor never will fully accept rules and regulations made by outside people so unfortunately the EU will never work for the UK in they way they want or think it should work for them, so there will be a continual problem of opting out and blocking various policies that the EU wish to proceed with.


The UK has some difficultly in accepting the major roles played by Germany and France in the EU who seem to make most of the important decisions, size and colour of banana's aside.


In my opinion, the UK will be initially worse off outside the EU but it will suit their unique personality much better and in the long run, it is probably the best thing to do.



The UK is not part of Europe, it has an island culture which over rides everything and the EU cannot understand this, nor never will.


It can be compared to our everyday life in the simile that we either abide by the rules in place or we get fined and sent to jail. Jail is not for ever, we eventually will get out and hopefully as a better entity.
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  #21729  
Old 29.08.2019, 12:58
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The UK never really wanted to be in the EU, when they joined in 1973 they still had a little power and prestige left over from WWII and the days of the Empire and always thought they were a cut above the rest; you could argue this is still the case.


The UK always wanted special clauses and opt outs to almost all the treaties, they negotiated a special reduction on what they pay into the EU, they have never really been a team player and the EU is about team playing.


If you join a club, you try to abide by it's rules, the UK never would, nor never will fully accept rules and regulations made by outside people so unfortunately the EU will never work for the UK in they way they want or think it should work for them, so there will be a continual problem of opting out and blocking various policies that the EU wish to proceed with.


The UK has some difficultly in accepting the major roles played by Germany and France in the EU who seem to make most of the important decisions, size and colour of banana's aside.


In my opinion, the UK will be initially worse off outside the EU but it will suit their unique personality much better and in the long run, it is probably the best thing to do.



The UK is not part of Europe, it has an island culture which over rides everything and the EU cannot understand this, nor never will.


It can be compared to our everyday life in the simile that we either abide by the rules in place or we get fined and sent to jail. Jail is not for ever, we eventually will get out and hopefully as a better entity.

Thank you.
  #21730  
Old 29.08.2019, 13:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

I think we’re all insane. That is the only rational explanation.
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  #21731  
Old 29.08.2019, 13:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It can be compared to our everyday life in the simile that we either abide by the rules in place or we get fined and sent to jail. Jail is not for ever, we eventually will get out and hopefully as a better entity.
I guess this is all dependent on the future leadership of the UK because the current selection of numpties certainly don't have the minerals to carry it forward. They can whine about "de Remoaners" and other excuses but, so far, they've not been able to stitch together any semblance of a plan. The best the PM has come up with is to lock the doors and keep everyone out.

I think there will be a protracted period of a stagnated nation, hamstrung by useless governments woefully ill-equipped to deal with a world which is unrecognisable in every aspect from trading to laws to communications from the early 70s, i.e. the last time the country was going it alone.

The populist and rousing speeches will give way to the biting reality quite quickly.
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  #21732  
Old 29.08.2019, 13:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Actually I believe that England (except London) and Wales voted to leave the EU.
You believe wrong and this is an oft quoted thing that always gets my back up because Manchester and Liverpool, amongst other northern towns and cities such as Harrogate, Leeds, York and Newcastle, voted Remain.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36616028
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  #21733  
Old 29.08.2019, 13:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You believe wrong and this is an oft quoted thing that always gets my back up because Manchester and Liverpool, amongst other northern towns and cities such as Harrogate, Leeds, York and Newcastle, voted Remain.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36616028
Essentially, people who have met forrins voted remain, people who haven't voted leave.

But it's definitely nothing to do with racism or xenophobia. Pure coincidence. Yup, definitely.
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  #21734  
Old 29.08.2019, 13:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The UK is not part of Europe, it has an island culture which over rides everything and the EU cannot understand this, nor never will.
Right and Ireland is an island nation that is one of the most pro EU states in the union....

The UK has never had to actually face up to the loss of empire... the commonwealth, the 'special relationship' etc... have allowed them to avoid reality for sometime now and your post is just another version of the "we're special nonsense"

In the coming years the UK is going to have to adjust to it's place in the world and understand that relationships and working together is how the world works. They got a first taste of it from the EU, the US will deliver another taste... and so on until they get a leader that will deliver the truth to them... how long that takes, who knows.
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  #21735  
Old 29.08.2019, 14:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Nice try, but nope. Hopefully a Leaver will be honest enough to answer this soon, we've only been waiting 3 years.
This kind of response is typical of why we will leave in chaos. No reason is going to be acceptable to you as to why a small but agile body can have advantages over bigger but slower ones.

It is the typical smirking, sneering sarcastic response that the people who want to leave don’t know what they are doing and it is exactly your type which will ultimately put people like nigel farage into government. Which will be a disaster:
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  #21736  
Old 29.08.2019, 14:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

I see the chief whip has resigned. His job, not his seat. Pity had he resigned his seat the Conservative/DUP would be in the minority.
  #21737  
Old 29.08.2019, 14:14
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This kind of response is typical of why we will leave in chaos. No reason is going to be acceptable to you as to why a small but agile body can have advantages over bigger but slower ones.

It is the typical smirking, sneering sarcastic response that the people who want to leave don’t know what they are doing and it is exactly your type which will ultimately put people like nigel farage into government. Which will be a disaster:
that's such a cop out, like every time anyone pointed out the disasters that would happen should we leave leavers screamed out 'project fear, project fear' well they aint shouting that any more are they???
  #21738  
Old 29.08.2019, 14:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Right and Ireland is an island nation that is one of the most pro EU states in the union....

The UK has never had to actually face up to the loss of empire... the commonwealth, the 'special relationship' etc... have allowed them to avoid reality for sometime now and your post is just another version of the "we're special nonsense"

In the coming years the UK is going to have to adjust to it's place in the world and understand that relationships and working together is how the world works. They got a first taste of it from the EU, the US will deliver another taste... and so on until they get a leader that will deliver the truth to them... how long that takes, who knows.



Fully agree with first paragraph, they have also sucked the most out of the EU, never had any allusions about their place or prestige in the world.


Fully agree with the second paragraph too, i never said, nor implied i agree in anyway with the "we're special nonsense"


The UK cannot adapt because of the second paragraph that takes precedence over everything else. Until thy understand and accept they are, as Putin said, a small inconsequential island, the UK will not change. Again i disagree with Putin on the inconsequential bit, i think the UK has plenty to add to the international scene, just not as much as they like to think.
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Old 29.08.2019, 14:24
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This kind of response is typical of why we will leave in chaos. No reason is going to be acceptable to you as to why a small but agile body can have advantages over bigger but slower ones.

It is the typical smirking, sneering sarcastic response that the people who want to leave don’t know what they are doing and it is exactly your type which will ultimately put people like nigel farage into government. Which will be a disaster:
From my own perspective, even at the time of the campaigning, there was no piece of information that struck a chord with me personally which justified leaving.

The reasons were sketchy, the default position of the leave campaigners was first to deflect probing questions and then get shouty, but still no tangible facts came forth.

OK, so you start to delve into the EU and its nuts and bolts and try to find the reasons there. Scout about on forums and follow links on social media. Still nothing. Even the famed millions, nay BILLIONS of pounds with NO return didn't stack up when you looked at it properly.

Had a look on Leave supporting websites and try to find some well thought out reasons there. Still nothing - just vague foggy opinions.

On balance, the Remain campaign was equally woolly and impotent BUT as someone who has benefitted from the EU and seen the initiatives on many aspects of UK life, remaining seemed like the sensible option.

The main problems that were affecting the UK at the time were all home grown; education, health service, declining police numbers. None of that could be blamed on the EU, so I couldn't even say "well, they've f00ked the NHS/schools/police so I can see the reasons for voting Leave!" Still nothing.
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Old 29.08.2019, 14:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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that's such a cop out, like every time anyone pointed out the disasters that would happen should we leave leavers screamed out 'project fear, project fear' well they aint shouting that any more are they???
Why then is it that every time somebody tries to answer the question they get shouted down and mocked and nitpicked rather than you trying to understand what they're trying to say, even if you don't agree.

Has it ever occurred to you that there may be some valid substance to what others are saying, even if you don't share that viewpoint and even if you have reason to think they are mistaken.

Could it, maybe, be that you don't actually want to know the answer to your own question. Maybe you are just seeking confirmation that everybody who disagrees with you is an idiot who just falls for waysist jingolism and otherwise has no clue what's going on? So even if it takes a special type of blinkers, you get to see only what you want to see and to hear what you want to hear.
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