The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Mikers]

	Quote:	3Wishes
	That's not totally true, though is it? From what I understand, post-Brexit the UK can't simply negotiate one deal with Spain, another with France, etc. It still has to negotiate with the whole EU bloc on a number of things as opposed to the individual members. The advantage comes when negotiating with non-EU countries, such as USA and China. For those negotiations the UK would no longer be bound by EU rules.

Yes thats the point - its for non EU countries where the UK will be able to independently trade.

	Quote:
	Don't speak too soon. There are cretins in the UK (various conservatives / Farage-alikes) that want to leave the ECHR as well. Which would be the day I stop even visiting the UK.

I dunno, I could see Moggy as an excellent minister for Workhouses.

[bigblue2]

	Quote:	3Wishes
	That's not totally true, though is it? From what I understand, post-Brexit the UK can't simply negotiate one deal with Spain, another with France, etc. It still has to negotiate with the whole EU bloc on a number of things as opposed to the individual members. .

correct, and I'm sure the EU will treat us with respect and not be bothered about the billions we owe them that we aren't paying.

	Quote:	bigblue2
	correct, and I'm sure the EU will treat us with respect and not be bothered about the billions we owe them that we aren't paying.

I wouldn't be as bothered about doing trade with the EU as I would be about getting utterly shafted by the US and China. We all know how butthurt they get if they don't feel they are being fairly (advantageously?) treated by their trading partners...

[bigblue2]

	Quote:
	I wouldn't be as bothered about doing trade with the EU as I would be about getting utterly shafted by the US and China. We all know how butthurt they get if they don't feel they are being fairly (advantageously?) treated by their trading partners...

I really don't think china or the usa really give a toss about the tiny uk market, all the usa care about is some juicy nhs cherry picking and maybe exporting their junk meat.

eta a trade deal with china would take many years to negotiate too, otherwise they would flood the uk with subsidised cheap goods to destroy what little industry we have left, eg like they did with solar panels

	Quote:
	I wouldn't be as bothered about doing trade with the EU as I would be about getting utterly shafted by the US and China. We all know how butthurt they get if they don't feel they are being fairly (advantageously?) treated by their trading partners...

Boris has shown there are no more sacred cows in the UK. The NHS will undoubtedly be part of trade deals with larger nations, looking to pull our pants down in our current state of disarray.

You know that BoJo or whichever clown replaces him will be looking for quick wins to cement their position, so expect acquiescence over quality when it comes to negotiating trade deals.

[Massa]

	Quote:
	Does the ECJ have any say on the UK deporting convicted criminals who are from outside of the EU, or were the convicted criminals from the EU? It's just that you (or your friend) talk about terrorist attacks but most of them appear to be carried out by non-EU people.

I did some Googling and it highlights the story of a Moroccan woman with a criminal conviction whom the European Court of Justice said should not be deported from Britain. So it seems to be both EU citizens and non EU citizens in answer to your question.

Further Googling highlighted that three of the bombers who carried out the London tube bombings were British-born sons of immigrants.

	Quote:	Massa
	I did some Googling and it highlights the story of a Moroccan woman with a criminal conviction whom the European Court of Justice said should not be deported from Britain. So it seems to be both EU citizens and non EU citizens in answer to your question. Further Googling highlighted that three of the bombers who carried out the London tube bombings were British-born sons of immigrants.

The conviction was for smuggling a sim-card into a jail and was not deemed "serious". She is also the sole carer for a British (EU citizen) child.

The PRELIMINARY judgement said that she couldn't be AUTOMATICALLY deported. This was merely an opinion of an Advocate General at the ECJ, not a ruling.

	Quote:	Massa
	I did some Googling and it highlights the story of a Moroccan woman with a criminal conviction whom the European Court of Justice said should not be deported from Britain. So it seems to be both EU citizens and non EU citizens in answer to your question.

Can you link it? I can't find it.

EDIT - found the story, thanks to StirB's extra clues...

	Quote:	Massa
	Further Googling highlighted that three of the bombers who carried out the London tube bombings were British-born sons of immigrants.

What would have been your favoured outcome? Were the bombers British citizens? Do you feel they should have been deported to the country of their parents? How do you think the ECJ snarled up the case and how would it have been different if the UK hadn't been in the EU?

	Quote:	Massa
	I did some Googling and it highlights the story of a Moroccan woman with a criminal conviction whom the European Court of Justice said should not be deported from Britain. So it seems to be both EU citizens and non EU citizens in answer to your question. Further Googling highlighted that three of the bombers who carried out the London tube bombings were British-born sons of immigrants.

The tube bombers are still NOTHING to do with the EU or the ECHR.

	Quote:
	I absolutely do get it. We can make our own trade deals when we leave. Hoorah. We have FAR fewer bargaining chips with a population of ~65m as opposed to half a billion though. Deals will NOT be quick, you are dreaming if you believe that people will be rolling out the red carpet - even to catch up with what the EU has will probably take decades (on worse terms). Honest question for you: Do you believe in 1 year, 10 years or 25 years we will have trade deals as favorable to us as we have in the EU now? What leverage do you believe we have to negotiate them that is better than within the EU?

Whilst in theory we should be able to make our own trade deals, they are notoriously complicated and laborious at the best of times.


The EU is certainly not above saying to whichever third country, "Deal with us, we're far bigger than the UK and more important, do a deal with the UK and we'll review our position with you.....nudge nudge



In view the UK market is small the amount of levrage or negotiation it has over an agreement is limited, especially if the other negotiating party is aware how desperate the UK is to do a deal.


The EU as a whole is an interesting party to do a trade deal with, plenty of consumers, 500mio (?), the UK has 60 mio consumers and not wildly well off in terms of foreign exchange rates.....

[bigblue2]

	Quote:
	What would have been your favoured outcome? Were the bombers British citizens? Do you feel they should have been deported to the country of their parents? How do you think the ECJ snarled up the case and how would it have been different if the UK hadn't been in the EU?

you can't deport them, they blew themselves up

[Massa]

Don't shoot the messenger I didn't express any opinion whatsoever - just provided some facts to try and broaden the debate away from some of the hysteria and vitriol expressed in this thread. I should know by now that was too much to ask on EF. Lesson learnt & duly noted for next time! #OverAndOut

	Quote:	bigblue2
	you can't deport them, they blew themselves up

Dammit! Devil's in the detail...

Actually, weren't there more people involved, though? Same as for the other terrorist attacks. I think the brother of the Manchester Arena bomber was extradited to the UK from Libya to face trial for his probably involvement in the attack.

[Clocker]

Brexit: Outrage over suspension of Parliament 'phoney'

Commons leader Mr Rees-Mogg said the outrage was "phoney", and that the move was "constitutional and proper".

"The candyfloss of outrage we've had over the last 24 hours, which I think is almost entirely confected, is from people who never wanted to leave the European Union," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49512762

	Quote:	Massa
	Don't shoot the messenger I didn't express any opinion whatsoever - just provided some facts to try and broaden the debate away from some of the hysteria and vitriol expressed in this thread. I should know by now that was too much to ask on EF. Lesson learnt & duly noted for next time! #OverAndOut

Which facts did you provide, again? Oh well, at least you can tell your buddy he voted for an invalid reason next time it comes up, so it wasn't all a blowout.

	Quote:	Clocker
	Brexit: Outrage over suspension of Parliament 'phoney' Commons leader Mr Rees-Mogg said the outrage was "phoney", and that the move was "constitutional and proper". "The candyfloss of outrage we've had over the last 24 hours, which I think is almost entirely confected, is from people who never wanted to leave the European Union," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49512762

Uuuhhhhh... What else would you expect from Moggy? Of course he's not going to acknowledge the validity or the sheer size of the protests!

	Quote:	Massa
	Don't shoot the messenger I didn't express any opinion whatsoever - just provided some facts to try and broaden the debate away from some of the hysteria and vitriol expressed in this thread. I should know by now that was too much to ask on EF. Lesson learnt & duly noted for next time! #OverAndOut

I think it was a useful post, though, to show a certain snapshot of why some people voted the way they did and is also an indictment of how much false information has been allowed to percolate through the process.

I'm sure your friend voted true to his beliefs, it's just unfortunate that his "main reason" for voting would, in theory, not be affected with a leave vote.

I'm sure he wasn't alone in his opinions.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	The EU is certainly not above saying to whichever third country, "Deal with us, we're far bigger than the UK and more important, do a deal with the UK and we'll review our position with you.....nudge nudge

That is not how the EU operates, they have put in to the trade agreements in black and white!

The deals with Canada, Japan and the Mercosur along with the deals being negotiated with India, Australia and New Zealand all contain a clause that require the agreement of the EU before these countries can grant a similar or better agreement to any other country including the UK.

This thread is metter than Brexit !!


1090 pages, each with an average of 20 posts means a total of.....wait for it


about 21'800 posts.......


Carry on but it's all jaw jaw and no real action, for whatever faults Boris may have, and that would be another 20'000 posts at least, he is trying to what he said he would and finalise Brexit by 31 Oct, whatever the outcome