The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[marton]

	Quote:
	Not sure it's anything to do with being thick. For me, my beef has always been that "Leave" wasn't defined. Even at the time of the referendum nobody could agree whether to be like Switzerland or be like Norway or god-knows-what. People therefore voted for their own interpretation of "Leave". Now there are people who voted Leave who don't want to leave with no deal, and vice versa, and everything in between. It's like being offered a cup of tea but you don't know what kind of tea it is (black, green, chamomile, mint, Earl Grey, etc., whether it's hot or iced, whether you get milk, sugar, lemon, etc.) But you were offered tea!! You either want tea or you don't want tea!!

I agree, nothing to do with being "thick". You could be a total genius but even then you could never understand what "leave" actually meant because it was never defined.

As was said "People therefore voted for their own interpretation of "Leave"" and there were so many different interpretations. It was all complicated by the fact that most people (including our own dear Government) never actually understood how the EU worked day to day and how decisions were made.

	Quote:	Mikers
	So we go for a second referendum, entitled "How do you want to leave the EU ?" with options from with a very soft deal, to options about the hardest leaving (without any arrangement in place). What we do not offer is remaining in the EU, because that decision has already been made. This would then ensure a democratic result on how we left the EU, because the population has already answered the question of whether it wants to leave the EU.

Assuming the EU agrees to a selection box of various scenarios.

I think that in light of all the fresh information that emerged post referendum, from both sides, the option to remain should also be there. It's a completely different beast to what it was three years ago and it might have shed a new light on things.

It would certainly be an interesting referendum.

	Quote:
	Funny that you take a divorce as example.

Other examples are available.

	Quote:
	Leaving or staying is for many people me included not all about the economics it is also about freedom and emotions, about being your own boss.

Well, quite.

The leave campaign had similar ill-defined fluff but it seems to work...

[marton]

	Quote:
	Funny that you take a divorce as example. Most people I know who initiated a divorce did never expect things to be better in the short run, and even tho they in the long run often have ended up with less money and less friends than they had before they still feel good about having done it, the nagging stopped, uncomfortable feelings went away, less restricted in what they want to do. Leaving or staying is for many people me included not all about the economics it is also about freedom and emotions, about being your own boss. Take the Netherlands for example a country where the sound to leave the EU always has been a loud and strong one, and if Brexit would be successful that sound might become to strong to ignore. Now they have the problem that new European laws have forbidden the way the dutch fire brigade is organised and a complete restructure which is unwanted by politics as well the fire brigade and its employers. Nobody wants it, but hey the EU says "this will happen or else.." and it will cost money, much money. How great it must be to be done with such shit. We loved the EEG, we like Schengen, but it all has turned into an ever-growing fear mongering moloch that needs to be decapatitated in my opinion.

If it was unwanted by politics then why did they not veto the change? It is easy to blame the EU when your own politicians had a role to play?

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Mikers
	... the prime minister at the time and the MP's in the government all said they would implement the decision of the referendum. We have not yet left Europe, each time it is voted down by the MP's who said they would support it.

1. As has repeatedly said, the specific government which made this promised was formally and legally dissolved in May 2017 to make way for the GE. Subsequent governments are under no legal duty or obligation to enact the result of the referendum.

2. If the current PM, various members of his cabinet and the ERG had not voted against the previous PMs deal, the UK would now be out of the EU and into the transition period. That's the pure and simple maths of the matter. Every Brexiter who points the finger should look to their own house first and foremost.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Swisstree
	A little bit of calm from Pooh.

I bet you never thought you'd write those words

	Quote:	marton
	If it was unwanted by politics then why did they not veto the change? It is easy to blame the EU when your own politicians had a role to play?

It be great if you can explain the Dutch government and us on this forum how to veto a qualified majority voting.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	1. As has repeatedly said, the specific government which made this promised was formally and legally dissolved in May 2017 to make way for the GE. Subsequent governments are under no legal duty or obligation to enact the result of the referendum. 2. If the current PM, various members of his cabinet and the ERG had not voted against the previous PMs deal, the UK would now be out of the EU and into the transition period. That's the pure and simple maths of the matter. Every Brexiter who points the finger should look to their own house first and foremost.

1. Exactly why the man in the street will vote even more for Brexit when confronted with some idiotic legal getout like this. You can point out your legally correct, but you cant stop him voting for the Brexit party instead of Labour or Conservative at the next election because he feels someone kept using legal clauses to cheat him out of his democratic right.

2. Agree. However what does the man on the street care ? he voted out. Politicians are still frustrating him. Thats the end of the argument.

[Mikers]

	Quote:
	Assuming the EU agrees to a selection box of various scenarios. I think that in light of all the fresh information that emerged post referendum, from both sides, the option to remain should also be there. It's a completely different beast to what it was three years ago and it might have shed a new light on things.

This breaks democracy because you are ignoring a vote, so its unworkable.

Even say you do it, what is the question without trying to cheat your illiterate leavers ? It is not "remain in the EU vs leave option 1 vs leave option 2 vs leave option 3" as even a primary school child will tell you that you are rigging the election because the leave options are all part of the same class here, so its patently dishonest to make all those equal.

it either has to be "leave or remain ?" then the result of that is taken as the decision. Then ask "how do you want to leave" or "how do you want to remain" as what, a second question ? its fraught with difficulty. Remember you can remain in many flavours - soft remain (as we are), hard remain (single army, join Euro), etc etc.

Its completely unworkable. you implement the referendum result. if you want another referendum after that, fine, have one. But it has to happen in this order.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	Not sure it's anything to do with being thick. For me, my beef has always been that "Leave" wasn't defined. Even at the time of the referendum nobody could agree whether to be like Switzerland or be like Norway or god-knows-what. People therefore voted for their own interpretation of "Leave". Now there are people who voted Leave who don't want to leave with no deal, and vice versa, and everything in between. It's like being offered a cup of tea but you don't know what kind of tea it is (black, green, chamomile, mint, Earl Grey, etc., whether it's hot or iced, whether you get milk, sugar, lemon, etc.) But you were offered tea!! You either want tea or you don't want tea!!

Interestingly, if you look at the poll in this thread, the most popular option is "I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU". This is something which is neither remain nor leave.


In any case, the situation has been handled so poorly that both remainers (because the country looks like a fool and many companies have left already) and leavers (because they didn't get what they voted for) have lost.

	Quote:	Mikers
	Even say you do it, what is the question without trying to cheat your illiterate leavers ?

Why are you continually pushing the "thick" and "illiterate" agenda? So far it's only you that has referred to Leavers in this way.

I think Leavers are intentionally pushing at this angle because it somehow deflects from the fact that the campaign material was riddled with lies and mis-information. Admitting to that would be admitting that the referendum result was unstable.

It's far more effective to shout loudly and point the finger at Remainers accusing them of insulting Leavers than look honestly at the campaign material and admit that everyone was voting on a raft of lies.

[Mikers]

	Quote:
	Why are you continually pushing the "thick" and "illiterate" agenda? So far it's only you that has referred to Leavers in this way. I think Leavers are intentionally pushing at this angle because it somehow deflects from the fact that the campaign material was riddled with lies and mis-information. Admitting to that would be admitting that the referendum result was unstable. It's far more effective to shout loudly and point the finger at Remainers accusing them of insulting Leavers than look honestly at the campaign material and admit that everyone was voting on a raft of lies.

I am saying this because of the use of the phrasing that people voting leave "did not understand what they were voting for" which has been used on this debate many thousands of times, by mainstream figures, by pretty much everyone.

Everyone voted on a raft of lies. Both sides. Mind you, everyone votes on a raft of lies for most things in life, thats what Sales and Marketing is about. the UK Bought Leave and it has to be delivered.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Mikers
	Democracy is the absolute building block of structured societies. We have got to leave the EU because it was voted for in a referendum. If we dont, using rubbish like "advisory", "what about the 16 year olds", "people have died since then", "changed our minds" or "the flying spaghetti monster didnt get to vote" then it will be an unmitigated disaster. It will increase massively the vote for the far right (not Brexit party, but the real far right, the proper nasty pieces of work), it will move Nigel Farage into prime candidate to win and be prime minister and all the other things that we do not want to happen. .

I think the far-right, the proper nasty pieces of work will come out exactly because of what has been said and done during the pro-Brexit campaign, and saw their opinions validated and that it is OK to do that. Suppose you'll have a no-deal Brexit, the far-right will be still there. They just discovered how much space they can occupy.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	greenmount
	I think the far-right, the proper nasty pieces of work will come out exactly because of what has been said and done during the pro-Brexit campaign, and saw their opinions validated and that it is OK to do that. Suppose you'll have a no-deal Brexit, the far-right will be still there. They just discovered how much space they can occupy.

No, most people are decent until they are disenfranchised. the Right would (will) remain a minority if we follow Brexit but if we take away the verdict of the common man, he will respond and the Right will lurch to popularity.

	Quote:	Mikers
	I am saying this because of the use of the phrasing that people voting leave "did not understand what they were voting for" which has been used on this debate many thousands of times, by mainstream figures, by pretty much everyone.

Stephen Hawking couldn't have understood what Leave meant, as it wasn't defined. That isn't really a slight on the intelligence of Leave voters (unless they are suggesting they did know exactly what they voted for, but that's a different matter) it is just a fact of the Leave referendum campaign; Norway, Switzerland, custom, easiest-deal-in-history Brexit - which was your poison?

The parliamentary questions for the Attorney General this morning are very interesting.

	Quote:	Mikers
	I am saying this because of the use of the phrasing that people voting leave "did not understand what they were voting for" which has been used on this debate many thousands of times, by mainstream figures, by pretty much everyone.

Still doesn't deserve the "thick" and "illiterate" labels.

People didn't understand because they were given scant information and most things conflicted and contradicted. Again, it's nothing to do with being thick or illiterate.

You are right about lies, though. Thing is that places like the Supreme Court tend to take a dim view of it when the nation's leading party is the root of it all.

Bet Bojo is wishing he had a cushy bullshitting job in Sales and Marketing right now.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Mikers
	Because if I look at it at an external perspective, what I read as the follow on interpretation is "you don't know what you voted for, so it must be declared invalid.", which is right back where it started: leavers are too thick to know what they were on about.

Just to zoom in on this point, it was a prominent, and very effective, piece of propaganda put out repeatedly by Leave campaigners. It was all part of the us vs the liberal elite/experts tack. From the very start, I found it deeply offensive.

We are all individuals and we all think differently. Some people heed the advice of their peers with little self analysis of the reasoning and facts. Some must have cast iron evidence. Some get an adrenalin rush from throwing caution to the wind. Some have a more emotional gut response before facts kick in (my OH). Personally, I'm the person who thrives upon finding a needle in a haystack.

Of my remainer friends, there were quite a number of them that had a deeply emotional reason for their vote choice with precious little knowledge of any other factors. One voted remain because her best friend is Spanish and she didn't like seeing her worried and upset. Another voted remain because her dad was having chemo and she was worried about the supply of his treatment. I know many people like this who had one singular reason for their vote at the time, and still have little knowledge of all the other aspects of the issue. They're not 'thick'. They're just not political animals. The girl with the Spanish friend said to me, "How am I part of this liberal elite? I'm a self-employed decorator who lives at home with her parents because she can't afford a house her own!"

The bile spewed out to divide us up was propaganda and the vast majority of it came from one side of the debate, and one person in particular who is currently the lifetime leader of a group of people (plc) masquerading as a political party with donors rather than members.

As I see it, resorting to name-calling has been the positions of "Brexiteers" for some time, in lieu of an actual argument.

There has been ugliness on both sides for far too long now.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Mikers
	Everyone voted on a raft of lies. Both sides. Mind you, everyone votes on a raft of lies for most things in life, thats what Sales and Marketing is about.

I voted remain primarily because I have an EU partner, and at the time, our late nephew and a very close friend of mine were both having chemo. Even the tiniest idea that their treatment supply chain could be interupted was too much to bear. Those were my top two reasons because they were real and tangible to me. That's a long way from being a raft of lies.

Because I've worked with the implementation of a fair amount of EU legislation in the past, I also had some other knowledge in my armour. I freely admit to having had little realisation that the NI border would become such a prominent factor.

[porsch1909]

What I'd give to have a voice like the AG