The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Mikers]

	Quote:	greenmount
	See, that's the thing with guys like this....right there. Anyways, he had a very decent amount of opposition on this forum, nothing to be worried about. There were situations when I was disappointed at the lack of response from our decent regulars, but since the referendum everyone is awoke, so to speak. And frankly he's not thinking that differently than your average brexiteer. Good riddance, whatever. It was his decision anyway..

By 'decent' here you mean "agrees with my viewpoint of remaining in the EU", which is more or less what this debate has turned into. Anyone actually batting for the other side has more or less stopped contributing or has left, because of the weight of the stream of responses against them every time any point was made.

Whether its better is a matter of personal taste. A set of people all agreeing that Johnson is an idiot, the EU won't renew the extension, Britain deserves everything its getting and people who wanted the Brexit referendum enacted are a bunch of thick racists who never understood how to tie their own shoelaces will appeal to people who have the same viewpoint but it is not debate.

[Castro]

	Quote:
	Had the referendum required a super majority and achieved it then a case could be made for it's continued validity. I felt when it was announced that such an important issue needed a super majority, you have to be sure you are taking the pulse of the people for a significant period of time, not the will of the people on this particular Thursday. YouGov made a credible case that as demographics change through natural attrition the leave majority has been shrinking by 1300 voters a day.

This is precisely what I wrote many hundreds of pages back when I was younger and handsomer

In my opinion the terms of the referendum were fatally flawed, missing three key components e.g. a) need for a super majority to unseat the long established status quo (a requirement in the USA and many other countries for consitutional changes) b) properly informed populace with a place they could go for verified, impartial information (there were lies and disinformation on both sides) and c) a clear path laid out for what it means to leave the EU.

People were asked to vote on taking a taxi to the airport, thats it. We know we are off somewhere, but whether its the Seychelles or Pyongyang is kind of relevent

Cameron dispenced with all this because he thought it would be a slam dunk victory, having cruised the Scottish referendum. In hindsight it was madness to allow such a momentus decision to be reached with a simple 50:50 vote, and promises of 'in' or 'out'.

	Quote:	Mikers
	By 'decent' here you mean "agrees with my viewpoint of remaining in the EU", which is more or less what this debate has turned into. Anyone actually batting for the other side has more or less stopped contributing or has left, because of the weight of the stream of responses against them every time any point was made. Whether its better is a matter of personal taste. A set of people all agreeing that Johnson is an idiot, the EU won't renew the extension, Britain deserves everything its getting and people who wanted the Brexit referendum enacted are a bunch of thick racists who never understood how to tie their own shoelaces will appeal to people who have the same viewpoint but it is not debate.

I agree it has become a bit one-sided but when you look back, the pro-Brexit viewpoints are often easily dismantled or don't stand up to even half-serious challenges.

Most of the pro-Brexit rhetoric is quoting tired old tropes from the early 70s or skewed stats covering niche areas of industry. I don't think there is much which has been covered which solidly supports leaving the EU to any meaningful degree.

I guess you can find compelling information somewhere on the internet which would have served as a proper and truthful manifesto for the referendum but if it exists, I haven't found it yet - or at least anything that made sense then, makes sense now and keeps making sense for the future generations.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Mikers
	By 'decent' here you mean "agrees with my viewpoint of remaining in the EU", which is more or less what this debate has turned into. Anyone actually batting for the other side has more or less stopped contributing or has left, because of the weight of the stream of responses against them every time any point was made. .

You assume I still care about the future of the UK in the EU? I care about EU, that's a different thing.

By "decent" I meant well, decent and well informed. Not really supporting those who're trying to impose their views through insults for instance.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	greenmount
	You assume I still care about the future of the UK in the EU? I care about EU, that's a different thing. By "decent" I meant well, decent and well informed. Not really supporting those who're trying to impose their views through insults for instance.

i rest my case.

[John William]

Get ready for Brexit means Get ready for Broccoli !!



As Expats might or might not know the UK is self sufficient in Broccoli and with the likelihood of shortages
of fresh vegetables from abroad on the cards, as outlined in the Yellowhammer report.

It's good to see one enterprising Italian restaurant chain based in Dubai is hoping to capitalise
on Brexit by opening it's second Broccoli Piza & Pasta restuarant in Glasgow, following it's first UK
opening in Leicester, thanks to the high likelihood of a No Deal Brexit.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Mikers
	i rest my case.

No, don't. Please come forward with arguments that are not

	Quote:
	easily dismantled or don't stand up to even half-serious challenges.

I might include you in my list of decent posters.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	greenmount
	No, don't. Please come forward with arguments that are not.

I am for Remaining in Europe, though you probably didnt manage to pick that up.

However here's an argument for you: there was a referendum supported by pariliament about leaving the EU, it was won by those leaving 52% to 48%. the prime minister at the time and the MP's in the government all said they would implement the decision of the referendum.

We have not yet left Europe, each time it is voted down by the MP's who said they would support it.

	Quote:	Mikers
	I am for Remaining in Europe, though you probably didnt manage to pick that up. However here's an argument for you: there was a referendum supported by pariliament about leaving the EU, it was won by those leaving 52% to 48%. the prime minister at the time and the MP's in the government all said they would implement the decision of the referendum. We have not yet left Europe, each time it is voted down by the MP's who said they would support it.

I think the term "Leave" was just not defined enough.

If you are in a terrible marriage and you just want out, you jump at a divorce. Then you realise that you have kids, a house, a dog, a record collection, joint bills, pensions, friends and a million and one other details which you didn't consider when you marched into the court and angrily scratched your signature on the paperwork.

This seems to be a similar scenario with Brexit. If the UK just cuts ties 100% with a clean break, all the useful stuff and mutually acquired facets of the past 40 years will be just handed over to the EU.

Yes, figuratively speaking, the UK gets to keep its job as a middle-management accountant at a notable firm, so it still functions as a stand-alone but slightly bitter divorcee but suddenly there's no mates to depend on to pick up the kids or look after the dog when you're late home and that cheap mechanic you used to take the car to no longer wants to offer you the mates' rates you enjoyed before.

Not only that but in the last 3 years, you have shown yourself to be utterly pathetic, childish, unreliable, and out of control so any new mates on the horizon will either turn round and walk away or will take full advantage of the weepy, vulnerable and lost singleton, desperate for new buddies at any cost.

The EU referendum didn't consider the mutual relationship part in any shape or form.

I think most people agree that Cameron did it as a crowd pleaser, a) without too much thought about the details because b) he didn't expect it to go in Leave's direction.

Johnson's supporters this morning are adamant he did nothing wrong and the eleven judges had an agenda.

Yuck.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Mikers
	By 'decent' here you mean "agrees with my viewpoint of remaining in the EU", which is more or less what this debate has turned into. Anyone actually batting for the other side has more or less stopped contributing or has left, because of the weight of the stream of responses against them every time any point was made.

I appreciated having someone like Loz to lock horns with. On occasion, he tested my beliefs and we all need that to hone our views. What I didn't get from him was a solid, justifiable reason why he held such views. It always appeared to be born of a love of chaos and wanting to stir the pot, but with few credible aims and no feasible remedy. I only joined my first online debate forum when I was a union rep because it forced me to research, learn and hone the skill which came in damned useful in the workplace.

	Quote:
	Way more concerning to me even than Brexit is the reaction to the judges (unanimous) ruling, whether the UK is in or out, I want it to be a country of laws. Bojo was more restrained than I expected but the rightwing tabloids are frothing about unelected judges which is a dangerous path.

Case in point was this little exchange between Brexit Party MEP Annunziata Rees-Mogg and constitutional law expert David Allen Green yesterday...


https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/...30662469328897

[Mikers]

	Quote:
	I think the term "Leave" was just not defined enough. If you are in a terrible marriage and you just want out, you jump at a divorce. Then you realise that you have kids, a house, a dog, a record collection, joint bills, pensions, friends and a million and one other details which you didn't consider when you marched into the court and angrily scratched your signature on the paperwork. This seems to be a similar scenario with Brexit. If the UK just cuts ties 100% with a clean break, all the useful stuff and mutually acquired facets of the past 40 years will be just handed over to the EU. Yes, figuratively speaking, the UK gets to keep its job as a middle-management accountant at a notable firm, so it still functions as a stand-alone but slightly bitter divorcee but suddenly there's no mates to depend on to pick up the kids or look after the dog when you're late home and that cheap mechanic you used to take the car to no longer wants to offer you the mates' rates you enjoyed before. Not only that but in the last 3 years, you have shown yourself to be utterly pathetic, childish, unreliable, and out of control so any new mates on the horizon will either turn round and walk away or will take full advantage of the weepy, vulnerable and lost singleton, desperate for new buddies at any cost. The EU referendum didn't consider the mutual relationship part in any shape or form. I think most people agree that Cameron did it as a crowd pleaser, a) without too much thought about the details because b) he didn't expect it to go in Leave's direction.

And this is a good analogy, amongst many thousands by now, used by people who want to remain and there are a barrage of similar analogies by people who want leave on the other side.

But to prove the point I am trying to make, based on the above, what is the actual point being made (not you, dont take it personally). i.e. assuming the above analogy is correct, what is it you are actually saying ? Because if I look at it at an external perspective, what I read as the follow on interpretation is "you don't know what you voted for, so it must be declared invalid.", which is right back where it started: leavers are too thick to know what they were on about.

Democracy is the absolute building block of structured societies. We have got to leave the EU because it was voted for in a referendum. If we dont, using rubbish like "advisory", "what about the 16 year olds", "people have died since then", "changed our minds" or "the flying spaghetti monster didnt get to vote" then it will be an unmitigated disaster. It will increase massively the vote for the far right (not Brexit party, but the real far right, the proper nasty pieces of work), it will move Nigel Farage into prime candidate to win and be prime minister and all the other things that we do not want to happen.

The man on the street voted to leave the EU and the country, via politicians, said they would do that. If that is stopped by MP's Judge's, the Queen or just snooty people telling the man on the street he was too thick to understand it all, it will only determine - more than ever - his resolve to leave.

And there are enough men on the street to win a majority at an election, whether we like it or not.

We must leave the EU with a good relationship then in due course apply to rejoin in some years, hoping we can return to the same relationship we had.

	Quote:	Mikers
	But to prove the point I am trying to make, based on the above, what is the actual point being made (not you, dont take it personally). i.e. assuming the above analogy is correct, what is it you are actually saying ? Because if I look at it at an external perspective, what I read as the follow on interpretation is "you don't know what you voted for, so it must be declared invalid.", which is right back where it started: leavers are too thick to know what they were on about.

Not sure it's anything to do with being thick. For me, my beef has always been that "Leave" wasn't defined. Even at the time of the referendum nobody could agree whether to be like Switzerland or be like Norway or god-knows-what.

People therefore voted for their own interpretation of "Leave".

Now there are people who voted Leave who don't want to leave with no deal, and vice versa, and everything in between.

It's like being offered a cup of tea but you don't know what kind of tea it is (black, green, chamomile, mint, Earl Grey, etc., whether it's hot or iced, whether you get milk, sugar, lemon, etc.)

But you were offered tea!! You either want tea or you don't want tea!!

[Mikers]

	Quote:
	Not sure it's anything to do with being thick. For me, my beef has always been that "Leave" wasn't defined. Even at the time of the referendum nobody could agree whether to be like Switzerland or be like Norway or god-knows-what. People therefore voted for their own interpretation of "Leave". Now there are people who voted Leave who don't want to leave with no deal, and vice versa, and everything in between. It's like being offered a cup of tea but you don't know what kind of tea it is (black, green, chamomile, mint, Earl Grey, etc., whether it's hot or iced, whether you get milk, sugar, lemon, etc.) But you were offered tea!! You either want tea or you don't want tea!!

So we go for a second referendum, entitled "How do you want to leave the EU ?" with options from with a very soft deal, to options about the hardest leaving (without any arrangement in place). What we do not offer is remaining in the EU, because that decision has already been made.

This would then ensure a democratic result on how we left the EU, because the population has already answered the question of whether it wants to leave the EU.

11:30 kick off..

Anything could happen. Anyone else nervous?

A little bit of calm from Pooh.

	Quote:
	I think the term "Leave" was just not defined enough. If you are in a terrible marriage and you just want out, you jump at a divorce. Then you realise that you have kids, a house, a dog, a record collection, joint bills, pensions, friends and a million and one other details which you didn't consider when you marched into the court and angrily scratched your signature on the paperwork. This seems to be a similar scenario with Brexit. If the UK just cuts ties 100% with a clean break, all the useful stuff and mutually acquired facets of the past 40 years will be just handed over to the EU. Yes, figuratively speaking, the UK gets to keep its job as a middle-management accountant at a notable firm, so it still functions as a stand-alone but slightly bitter divorcee but suddenly there's no mates to depend on to pick up the kids or look after the dog when you're late home and that cheap mechanic you used to take the car to no longer wants to offer you the mates' rates you enjoyed before. Not only that but in the last 3 years, you have shown yourself to be utterly pathetic, childish, unreliable, and out of control so any new mates on the horizon will either turn round and walk away or will take full advantage of the weepy, vulnerable and lost singleton, desperate for new buddies at any cost. The EU referendum didn't consider the mutual relationship part in any shape or form. I think most people agree that Cameron did it as a crowd pleaser, a) without too much thought about the details because b) he didn't expect it to go in Leave's direction.

Funny that you take a divorce as example.

Most people I know who initiated a divorce did never expect things to be better in the short run, and even tho they in the long run often have ended up with less money and less friends than they had before they still feel good about having done it, the nagging stopped, uncomfortable feelings went away, less restricted in what they want to do.

Leaving or staying is for many people me included not all about the economics it is also about freedom and emotions, about being your own boss.

Take the Netherlands for example a country where the sound to leave the EU always has been a loud and strong one, and if Brexit would be successful that sound might become to strong to ignore. Now they have the problem that new European laws have forbidden the way the dutch fire brigade is organised and a complete restructure which is unwanted by politics as well the fire brigade and its employers. Nobody wants it, but hey the EU says "this will happen or else.." and it will cost money, much money. How great it must be to be done with such shit.

We loved the EEG, we like Schengen, but it all has turned into an ever-growing fear mongering moloch that needs to be decapatitated in my opinion.

[marton]

	Quote:
	Not sure it's anything to do with being thick. For me, my beef has always been that "Leave" wasn't defined. Even at the time of the referendum nobody could agree whether to be like Switzerland or be like Norway or god-knows-what. People therefore voted for their own interpretation of "Leave". Now there are people who voted Leave who don't want to leave with no deal, and vice versa, and everything in between. It's like being offered a cup of tea but you don't know what kind of tea it is (black, green, chamomile, mint, Earl Grey, etc., whether it's hot or iced, whether you get milk, sugar, lemon, etc.) But you were offered tea!! You either want tea or you don't want tea!!

I agree, nothing to do with being "thick". You could be a total genius but even then you could never understand what "leave" actually meant because it was never defined.

As was said "People therefore voted for their own interpretation of "Leave"" and there were so many different interpretations. It was all complicated by the fact that most people (including our own dear Government) never actually understood how the EU worked day to day and how decisions were made.

	Quote:	Mikers
	So we go for a second referendum, entitled "How do you want to leave the EU ?" with options from with a very soft deal, to options about the hardest leaving (without any arrangement in place). What we do not offer is remaining in the EU, because that decision has already been made. This would then ensure a democratic result on how we left the EU, because the population has already answered the question of whether it wants to leave the EU.

Assuming the EU agrees to a selection box of various scenarios.

I think that in light of all the fresh information that emerged post referendum, from both sides, the option to remain should also be there. It's a completely different beast to what it was three years ago and it might have shed a new light on things.

It would certainly be an interesting referendum.

	Quote:
	Funny that you take a divorce as example.

Other examples are available.

	Quote:
	Leaving or staying is for many people me included not all about the economics it is also about freedom and emotions, about being your own boss.

Well, quite.

The leave campaign had similar ill-defined fluff but it seems to work...

[marton]

	Quote:
	Funny that you take a divorce as example. Most people I know who initiated a divorce did never expect things to be better in the short run, and even tho they in the long run often have ended up with less money and less friends than they had before they still feel good about having done it, the nagging stopped, uncomfortable feelings went away, less restricted in what they want to do. Leaving or staying is for many people me included not all about the economics it is also about freedom and emotions, about being your own boss. Take the Netherlands for example a country where the sound to leave the EU always has been a loud and strong one, and if Brexit would be successful that sound might become to strong to ignore. Now they have the problem that new European laws have forbidden the way the dutch fire brigade is organised and a complete restructure which is unwanted by politics as well the fire brigade and its employers. Nobody wants it, but hey the EU says "this will happen or else.." and it will cost money, much money. How great it must be to be done with such shit. We loved the EEG, we like Schengen, but it all has turned into an ever-growing fear mongering moloch that needs to be decapatitated in my opinion.

If it was unwanted by politics then why did they not veto the change? It is easy to blame the EU when your own politicians had a role to play?

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Mikers
	... the prime minister at the time and the MP's in the government all said they would implement the decision of the referendum. We have not yet left Europe, each time it is voted down by the MP's who said they would support it.

1. As has repeatedly said, the specific government which made this promised was formally and legally dissolved in May 2017 to make way for the GE. Subsequent governments are under no legal duty or obligation to enact the result of the referendum.

2. If the current PM, various members of his cabinet and the ERG had not voted against the previous PMs deal, the UK would now be out of the EU and into the transition period. That's the pure and simple maths of the matter. Every Brexiter who points the finger should look to their own house first and foremost.