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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #22641  
Old 25.09.2019, 13:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A little bit of calm from Pooh.
I bet you never thought you'd write those words
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  #22642  
Old 25.09.2019, 13:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If it was unwanted by politics then why did they not veto the change? It is easy to blame the EU when your own politicians had a role to play?
It be great if you can explain the Dutch government and us on this forum how to veto a qualified majority voting.
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  #22643  
Old 25.09.2019, 13:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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1. As has repeatedly said, the specific government which made this promised was formally and legally dissolved in May 2017 to make way for the GE. Subsequent governments are under no legal duty or obligation to enact the result of the referendum.

2. If the current PM, various members of his cabinet and the ERG had not voted against the previous PMs deal, the UK would now be out of the EU and into the transition period. That's the pure and simple maths of the matter. Every Brexiter who points the finger should look to their own house first and foremost.
1. Exactly why the man in the street will vote even more for Brexit when confronted with some idiotic legal getout like this. You can point out your legally correct, but you cant stop him voting for the Brexit party instead of Labour or Conservative at the next election because he feels someone kept using legal clauses to cheat him out of his democratic right.

2. Agree. However what does the man on the street care ? he voted out. Politicians are still frustrating him. Thats the end of the argument.
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  #22644  
Old 25.09.2019, 13:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Assuming the EU agrees to a selection box of various scenarios.

I think that in light of all the fresh information that emerged post referendum, from both sides, the option to remain should also be there. It's a completely different beast to what it was three years ago and it might have shed a new light on things.
This breaks democracy because you are ignoring a vote, so its unworkable.

Even say you do it, what is the question without trying to cheat your illiterate leavers ? It is not "remain in the EU vs leave option 1 vs leave option 2 vs leave option 3" as even a primary school child will tell you that you are rigging the election because the leave options are all part of the same class here, so its patently dishonest to make all those equal.

it either has to be "leave or remain ?" then the result of that is taken as the decision. Then ask "how do you want to leave" or "how do you want to remain" as what, a second question ? its fraught with difficulty. Remember you can remain in many flavours - soft remain (as we are), hard remain (single army, join Euro), etc etc.

Its completely unworkable. you implement the referendum result. if you want another referendum after that, fine, have one. But it has to happen in this order.
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  #22645  
Old 25.09.2019, 13:35
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not sure it's anything to do with being thick. For me, my beef has always been that "Leave" wasn't defined. Even at the time of the referendum nobody could agree whether to be like Switzerland or be like Norway or god-knows-what.

People therefore voted for their own interpretation of "Leave".

Now there are people who voted Leave who don't want to leave with no deal, and vice versa, and everything in between.

It's like being offered a cup of tea but you don't know what kind of tea it is (black, green, chamomile, mint, Earl Grey, etc., whether it's hot or iced, whether you get milk, sugar, lemon, etc.)

But you were offered tea!! You either want tea or you don't want tea!!

Interestingly, if you look at the poll in this thread, the most popular option is "I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU". This is something which is neither remain nor leave.


In any case, the situation has been handled so poorly that both remainers (because the country looks like a fool and many companies have left already) and leavers (because they didn't get what they voted for) have lost.
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  #22646  
Old 25.09.2019, 13:38
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Even say you do it, what is the question without trying to cheat your illiterate leavers ?
Why are you continually pushing the "thick" and "illiterate" agenda? So far it's only you that has referred to Leavers in this way.

I think Leavers are intentionally pushing at this angle because it somehow deflects from the fact that the campaign material was riddled with lies and mis-information. Admitting to that would be admitting that the referendum result was unstable.

It's far more effective to shout loudly and point the finger at Remainers accusing them of insulting Leavers than look honestly at the campaign material and admit that everyone was voting on a raft of lies.
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  #22647  
Old 25.09.2019, 13:46
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Why are you continually pushing the "thick" and "illiterate" agenda? So far it's only you that has referred to Leavers in this way.

I think Leavers are intentionally pushing at this angle because it somehow deflects from the fact that the campaign material was riddled with lies and mis-information. Admitting to that would be admitting that the referendum result was unstable.

It's far more effective to shout loudly and point the finger at Remainers accusing them of insulting Leavers than look honestly at the campaign material and admit that everyone was voting on a raft of lies.
I am saying this because of the use of the phrasing that people voting leave "did not understand what they were voting for" which has been used on this debate many thousands of times, by mainstream figures, by pretty much everyone.

Everyone voted on a raft of lies. Both sides. Mind you, everyone votes on a raft of lies for most things in life, thats what Sales and Marketing is about. the UK Bought Leave and it has to be delivered.
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  #22648  
Old 25.09.2019, 13:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Democracy is the absolute building block of structured societies. We have got to leave the EU because it was voted for in a referendum. If we dont, using rubbish like "advisory", "what about the 16 year olds", "people have died since then", "changed our minds" or "the flying spaghetti monster didnt get to vote" then it will be an unmitigated disaster. It will increase massively the vote for the far right (not Brexit party, but the real far right, the proper nasty pieces of work), it will move Nigel Farage into prime candidate to win and be prime minister and all the other things that we do not want to happen.
.
I think the far-right, the proper nasty pieces of work will come out exactly because of what has been said and done during the pro-Brexit campaign, and saw their opinions validated and that it is OK to do that. Suppose you'll have a no-deal Brexit, the far-right will be still there. They just discovered how much space they can occupy.
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  #22649  
Old 25.09.2019, 13:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think the far-right, the proper nasty pieces of work will come out exactly because of what has been said and done during the pro-Brexit campaign, and saw their opinions validated and that it is OK to do that. Suppose you'll have a no-deal Brexit, the far-right will be still there. They just discovered how much space they can occupy.
No, most people are decent until they are disenfranchised. the Right would (will) remain a minority if we follow Brexit but if we take away the verdict of the common man, he will respond and the Right will lurch to popularity.
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  #22650  
Old 25.09.2019, 13:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I am saying this because of the use of the phrasing that people voting leave "did not understand what they were voting for" which has been used on this debate many thousands of times, by mainstream figures, by pretty much everyone.
Stephen Hawking couldn't have understood what Leave meant, as it wasn't defined. That isn't really a slight on the intelligence of Leave voters (unless they are suggesting they did know exactly what they voted for, but that's a different matter) it is just a fact of the Leave referendum campaign; Norway, Switzerland, custom, easiest-deal-in-history Brexit - which was your poison?
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  #22651  
Old 25.09.2019, 13:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

The parliamentary questions for the Attorney General this morning are very interesting.
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Old 25.09.2019, 13:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I am saying this because of the use of the phrasing that people voting leave "did not understand what they were voting for" which has been used on this debate many thousands of times, by mainstream figures, by pretty much everyone.
Still doesn't deserve the "thick" and "illiterate" labels.

People didn't understand because they were given scant information and most things conflicted and contradicted. Again, it's nothing to do with being thick or illiterate.

You are right about lies, though. Thing is that places like the Supreme Court tend to take a dim view of it when the nation's leading party is the root of it all.

Bet Bojo is wishing he had a cushy bullshitting job in Sales and Marketing right now.
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  #22653  
Old 25.09.2019, 13:58
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Because if I look at it at an external perspective, what I read as the follow on interpretation is "you don't know what you voted for, so it must be declared invalid.", which is right back where it started: leavers are too thick to know what they were on about.
Just to zoom in on this point, it was a prominent, and very effective, piece of propaganda put out repeatedly by Leave campaigners. It was all part of the us vs the liberal elite/experts tack. From the very start, I found it deeply offensive.

We are all individuals and we all think differently. Some people heed the advice of their peers with little self analysis of the reasoning and facts. Some must have cast iron evidence. Some get an adrenalin rush from throwing caution to the wind. Some have a more emotional gut response before facts kick in (my OH). Personally, I'm the person who thrives upon finding a needle in a haystack.

Of my remainer friends, there were quite a number of them that had a deeply emotional reason for their vote choice with precious little knowledge of any other factors. One voted remain because her best friend is Spanish and she didn't like seeing her worried and upset. Another voted remain because her dad was having chemo and she was worried about the supply of his treatment. I know many people like this who had one singular reason for their vote at the time, and still have little knowledge of all the other aspects of the issue. They're not 'thick'. They're just not political animals. The girl with the Spanish friend said to me, "How am I part of this liberal elite? I'm a self-employed decorator who lives at home with her parents because she can't afford a house her own!"

The bile spewed out to divide us up was propaganda and the vast majority of it came from one side of the debate, and one person in particular who is currently the lifetime leader of a group of people (plc) masquerading as a political party with donors rather than members.
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  #22654  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

As I see it, resorting to name-calling has been the positions of "Brexiteers" for some time, in lieu of an actual argument.

There has been ugliness on both sides for far too long now.
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  #22655  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Everyone voted on a raft of lies. Both sides. Mind you, everyone votes on a raft of lies for most things in life, thats what Sales and Marketing is about.
I voted remain primarily because I have an EU partner, and at the time, our late nephew and a very close friend of mine were both having chemo. Even the tiniest idea that their treatment supply chain could be interupted was too much to bear. Those were my top two reasons because they were real and tangible to me. That's a long way from being a raft of lies.

Because I've worked with the implementation of a fair amount of EU legislation in the past, I also had some other knowledge in my armour. I freely admit to having had little realisation that the NI border would become such a prominent factor.
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Old 25.09.2019, 14:14
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

What I'd give to have a voice like the AG
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  #22657  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Personally, I'm the person who thrives upon finding a needle in a haystack.
.
...and you'll be smacked in the head by (probably) both sides. With gusto, may I add.
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  #22658  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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What I'd give to have a voice like the AG
It's incredible. Better even than Bercow's. If the political legal thing folds, he should contact Audible.
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  #22659  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:37
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Funny that you take a divorce as example.

Most people I know who initiated a divorce did never expect things to be better in the short run, and even tho they in the long run often have ended up with less money and less friends than they had before they still feel good about having done it, the nagging stopped, uncomfortable feelings went away, less restricted in what they want to do.

Leaving or staying is for many people me included not all about the economics it is also about freedom and emotions, about being your own boss.

Take the Netherlands for example a country where the sound to leave the EU always has been a loud and strong one, and if Brexit would be successful that sound might become to strong to ignore. Now they have the problem that new European laws have forbidden the way the dutch fire brigade is organised and a complete restructure which is unwanted by politics as well the fire brigade and its employers. Nobody wants it, but hey the EU says "this will happen or else.." and it will cost money, much money. How great it must be to be done with such shit.

We loved the EEG, we like Schengen, but it all has turned into an ever-growing fear mongering moloch that needs to be decapatitated in my opinion.
So you believe the Government chaos we have witnessed since the referendum demonstrates how useful and fulfilling it is "being your own boss"
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  #22660  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Just to zoom in on this point, it was a prominent, and very effective, piece of propaganda put out repeatedly by Leave campaigners. It was all part of the us vs the liberal elite/experts tack. From the very start, I found it deeply offensive.

We are all individuals and we all think differently. Some people heed the advice of their peers with little self analysis of the reasoning and facts. Some must have cast iron evidence. Some get an adrenalin rush from throwing caution to the wind. Some have a more emotional gut response before facts kick in (my OH). Personally, I'm the person who thrives upon finding a needle in a haystack.

Of my remainer friends, there were quite a number of them that had a deeply emotional reason for their vote choice with precious little knowledge of any other factors. One voted remain because her best friend is Spanish and she didn't like seeing her worried and upset. Another voted remain because her dad was having chemo and she was worried about the supply of his treatment. I know many people like this who had one singular reason for their vote at the time, and still have little knowledge of all the other aspects of the issue. They're not 'thick'. They're just not political animals. The girl with the Spanish friend said to me, "How am I part of this liberal elite? I'm a self-employed decorator who lives at home with her parents because she can't afford a house her own!"

The bile spewed out to divide us up was propaganda and the vast majority of it came from one side of the debate, and one person in particular who is currently the lifetime leader of a group of people (plc) masquerading as a political party with donors rather than members.
yes its all very personal and subjective. my enduring memory over the last three years is endless politicians - Emily Thornbury, So Swinson for example - saying again and again on Quesiton Time and Andrew Marr that "people didn't vote for no deal" as if they had this kind of understanding of the mind's of how people voted. Sent me round the bend, I have to say: how do these people from the Remain side of hte camp have the right to tell people they didnt understand what they voted for. Offensive in the extreme.
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