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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #22661  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I am saying this because of the use of the phrasing that people voting leave "did not understand what they were voting for" which has been used on this debate many thousands of times, by mainstream figures, by pretty much everyone.

Everyone voted on a raft of lies. Both sides. Mind you, everyone votes on a raft of lies for most things in life, thats what Sales and Marketing is about. the UK Bought Leave and it has to be delivered.
did they? leavers labeled everything remainers said as "project fear" but it looks very much to me like "project fear" is / has come true even before we've left, just take a look at some of Kent's local news sites to see the traffic chaos being caused on the m20 etc just in preparation for no deal.
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  #22662  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Well, quite.

The leave campaign had similar ill-defined fluff but it seems to work...
The problem with feelings and emotions is that they make you lose sight of rational arguments, and those are the ones that matter.
But it's a good start nonetheless, it has been admitted that the emotional factor had the greatest impact. Kind of proving your/our point altogether.
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  #22663  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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yes its all very personal and subjective. my enduring memory over the last three years is endless politicians - Emily Thornbury, So Swinson for example - saying again and again on Quesiton Time and Andrew Marr that "people didn't vote for no deal" as if they had this kind of understanding of the mind's of how people voted. Sent me round the bend, I have to say: how do these people from the Remain side of hte camp have the right to tell people they didnt understand what they voted for. Offensive in the extreme.
People didn't vote for no deal. Folk voted in or out. There wereno addendums, no "crashing out," no back stop concerns. It was an oversimplified choice for a, clearly, complex reality.

You are offended by the notion that professional politicians have presumably spoken with their constituents and are repeating the consensus?
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  #22664  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I am saying this because of the use of the phrasing that people voting leave "did not understand what they were voting for" which has been used on this debate many thousands of times, by mainstream figures, by pretty much everyone.

Everyone voted on a raft of lies. Both sides. Mind you, everyone votes on a raft of lies for most things in life, thats what Sales and Marketing is about. the UK Bought Leave and it has to be delivered.
Well sadly it is true "they did not understand what they were voting for"! Just to mention a few points, how many people can put their hands on their hearts and say they understood they were putting the Good Friday agreement at risk, crashing the value of the pound by 20+% and entering a period of a minimum of three and half years of Government chaos.
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  #22665  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:46
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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how do these people from the Remain side of hte camp have the right to tell people they didnt understand what they voted for. Offensive in the extreme.

because they didn't have any idea what they where voting for, no one has any idea what leave means, what the implications will be, they voted for some twats in a bus with 350 million a week to the nhs on



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  #22666  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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....

A little bit of calm from Pooh.
I think I know where you ate last night, it'll be over soon.
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  #22667  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It be great if you can explain the Dutch government and us on this forum how to veto a qualified majority voting.
Happy to explain but first give me the EU reference number of the deision you are talking about.
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  #22668  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:50
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how do these people from the Remain side of hte camp have the right to tell people they didnt understand what they voted for. Offensive in the extreme.
I guess it's somewhere along the same lines as being told by the slim majority of 52% that "the people" have spoken. 17 million speaking for the whole 60 million.

Not denying that the Leave campaign won but they don't "speak" for everyone, especially when even they can't agree what the definition of leave is.

That's the bit that gets on my tits.
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  #22669  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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People didn't vote for no deal. Folk voted in or out. There wereno addendums, no "crashing out," no back stop concerns. It was an oversimplified choice for a, clearly, complex reality.

You are offended by the notion that professional politicians have presumably spoken with their constituents and are repeating the consensus?
Some people did vote for leaving without a deal. So we go back to the earlier suggestion: lets find out by having a referendum on how to leave. its the fairest way to settle it. Either leave soft, leave hard, leave without deal whatever different leave options you want on the paper.

Then i wont get annoyed at politicians who pretend to know how people think and we can all have our tea happily knowing we have democratically voted how to leave.

Because we have voted to leave. that ship has already sailed.
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  #22670  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Some people did vote for leaving without a deal. So we go back to the earlier suggestion: lets find out by having a referendum on how to leave. its the fairest way to settle it. Either leave soft, leave hard, leave without deal whatever different leave options you want on the paper.

Then i wont get annoyed at politicians who pretend to know how people think and we can all have our tea happily knowing we have democratically voted how to leave.

Because we have voted to leave. that ship has already sailed.
and how would that work, when you get hard leave (for instance) winning with 15% of the vote? its just compounding the chaos
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  #22671  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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and how would that work, when you get hard leave (for instance) winning with 15% of the vote? its just compounding the chaos
no, its a democratic result if 100% of the population is asked for its view.
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  #22672  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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no, its a democratic result if 100% of the population is asked for its view.
well that didn't work out too well last time with only 2 options, do you really want another 3 years of arguing when its pointed out only 4m people voted for the winning option? so 57m+ people don't want it, sounds like a very very bad idea to me
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  #22673  
Old 25.09.2019, 15:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

page and pages ago it was asked, and never answered, what real advantage is there to leaving?

by real I mean an actual proper advantage, not one that is
a) impossible - eg we can make our own trade deals - widely debunked
b) totally wrong
c) 'advantages' we already had but never did anything with - like controlling our borders

I've still yet to hear one
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  #22674  
Old 25.09.2019, 15:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This breaks democracy because you are ignoring a vote, so its unworkable.

Even say you do it, what is the question without trying to cheat your illiterate leavers ? It is not "remain in the EU vs leave option 1 vs leave option 2 vs leave option 3" as even a primary school child will tell you that you are rigging the election because the leave options are all part of the same class here, so its patently dishonest to make all those equal.

it either has to be "leave or remain ?" then the result of that is taken as the decision. Then ask "how do you want to leave" or "how do you want to remain" as what, a second question ? its fraught with difficulty. Remember you can remain in many flavours - soft remain (as we are), hard remain (single army, join Euro), etc etc.

Its completely unworkable. you implement the referendum result. if you want another referendum after that, fine, have one. But it has to happen in this order.
How does it break democracy? democracy is the will of the people, before you can enact that you have to find out what it *is*, not what it *was* three years ago. It's such an important decision and the margin was so narrow I think anything other than re-ref would be reckless. My PC asks me for more confirmation than this when I try to delete things, and a good thing it does.
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  #22675  
Old 25.09.2019, 15:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Some people did vote for leaving without a deal. So we go back to the earlier suggestion: lets find out by having a referendum on how to leave. its the fairest way to settle it. Either leave soft, leave hard, leave without deal whatever different leave options you want on the paper.

Then i wont get annoyed at politicians who pretend to know how people think and we can all have our tea happily knowing we have democratically voted how to leave.

Because we have voted to leave. that ship has already sailed.
When? A no-deal Brexit wasn't one of the options IIRC.
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  #22676  
Old 25.09.2019, 15:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So we go for a second referendum, entitled "How do you want to leave the EU ?" with options from with a very soft deal, to options about the hardest leaving (without any arrangement in place). What we do not offer is remaining in the EU, because that decision has already been made.

This would then ensure a democratic result on how we left the EU, because the population has already answered the question of whether it wants to leave the EU.
"What we do not offer is remaining in the EU, because that decision has already been made." Well the whole point of living in a democracy is that every decision can be reviewed and changed.

If you truly believe that once a decision is made by votes in a referendum it cannot be changed not then I point you to the 1975 United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum, 5 June 1975, 67.2% in favour.
So according to you the 2016 United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, 23 June 2016 should not have been held?
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Old 25.09.2019, 15:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"What we do not offer is remaining in the EU, because that decision has already been made." Well the whole point of living in a democracy is that every decision can be reviewed and changed.

If you truly believe that once a decision is made by votes in a referendum it cannot be changed not then I point you to the 1975 United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum, 5 June 1975, 67.2% in favour.
So according to you the 2016 United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, 23 June 2016 should not have been held?

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  #22678  
Old 25.09.2019, 15:20
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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and how would that work, when you get hard leave (for instance) winning with 15% of the vote? its just compounding the chaos
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page and pages ago it was asked, and never answered, what real advantage is there to leaving?

by real I mean an actual proper advantage, not one that is
a) impossible - eg we can make our own trade deals - widely debunked
b) totally wrong
c) 'advantages' we already had but never did anything with - like controlling our borders

I've still yet to hear one
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How does it break democracy? democracy is the will of the people, before you can enact that you have to find out what it *is*, not what it *was* three years ago. It's such an important decision and the margin was so narrow I think anything other than re-ref would be reckless. My PC asks me for more confirmation than this when I try to delete things, and a good thing it does.
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When? A no-deal Brexit wasn't one of the options IIRC.
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"What we do not offer is remaining in the EU, because that decision has already been made." Well the whole point of living in a democracy is that every decision can be reviewed and changed.

If you truly believe that once a decision is made by votes in a referendum it cannot be changed not then I point you to the 1975 United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum, 5 June 1975, 67.2% in favour.
So according to you the 2016 United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, 23 June 2016 should not have been held?
This is why this thread doesn't really work any more for debating, you cannot argue when it is 20:1.

I want us to remain and I think there should be another referendum with remain or different leave types and you only win if its clear.

And I think johnson should be sacked. And I think vote leave lied continually.

Scumbags. Lets hope it gets reversed.
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  #22679  
Old 25.09.2019, 15:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This is why this thread doesn't really work any more for debating, you cannot argue when it is 20:1.

I want us to remain and I think there should be another referendum with remain or different leave types and you only win if its clear.

And I think johnson should be sacked. And I think vote leave lied continually.

Scumbags. Lets hope it gets reversed.
There isn't a counter argument offered, that's the point. But I agree.
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  #22680  
Old 25.09.2019, 15:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This is why this thread doesn't really work any more for debating, you cannot argue when it is 20:1.

I want us to remain and I think there should be another referendum with remain or different leave types and you only win if its clear.

And I think johnson should be sacked. And I think vote leave lied continually.

Scumbags. Lets hope it gets reversed.
A lot of people would love to debate it properly, but when the leave argument is "because we want to" with no substance behind it what are you supposed to do? remainers pointed out the benefits of staying in the club and where roundly shouted down, a huge fat lie was printed on the side of the bus which, lets face it, was the main reason a lot of people voted leave, yet now it seems conveniently forgotten.

I personally know people who voted leave and the reasons they have given shocked me, people I thought I knew well including family spouting total racist BS, kick the foreigners out, jobs for the british, border control (its a f****g island you moron), nhs money, gold toilet seats in brussels the list of ill informed nonsense is staggering.
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