The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	marton
	Happy to explain but first give me the EU reference number of the deision you are talking about.

I did not ask for a question, I asked for an answer.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	marton
	"What we do not offer is remaining in the EU, because that decision has already been made." Well the whole point of living in a democracy is that every decision can be reviewed and changed. If you truly believe that once a decision is made by votes in a referendum it cannot be changed not then I point you to the 1975 United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum, 5 June 1975, 67.2% in favour. So according to you the 2016 United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, 23 June 2016 should not have been held?

1975

	Quote:
	In a 1975 pamphlet Prime Minister Harold Wilson said: "I ask you to use your vote. For it is your vote that will now decide. The Government will accept your verdict."[3] The pamphlet also said: "Now the time has come for you to decide. The Government will accept your decision — whichever way it goes."

2016

	Quote:
	This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.

Government promises have changed in 41 years

	Quote:
	Now they have the problem that new European laws have forbidden the way the dutch fire brigade is organised and a complete restructure which is unwanted by politics as well the fire brigade and its employers. Nobody wants it, but hey the EU says "this will happen or else.." and it will cost money, much money. How great it must be to be done with such shit.

	Quote:
	I did not ask for a question, I asked for an answer.

Is it this?

	Quote:
	The volunteer fire services in the Netherlands could become a thing of the past because of European rules on pay, the AD reported on Wednesday. Some 80% of Dutch firemen are volunteers and paying them a proper wage according to European legislation, would be too costly and compromise the status of the firemen, the paper said. The Dutch fire service consists of over 19,000 volunteers and 5,000 professional firemen and rural fire stations are completely manned by volunteers. Local authorities, who are financially responsible for the fire stations, have already said they do not have the money to pay a completely professional force. Labour law professor Leonard Verburg said doing nothing about the situation is not an option. ‘There are two solutions. All firemen are given the same employment conditions or the system is reformed completely with different groups on different pay,’ he told the paper.

Doesn't seem to be much of a "this will happen or else" thing going on...

[marton]

	Quote:
	It be great if you can explain the Dutch government and us on this forum how to veto a qualified majority voting.

Good bluff but it turns out the relevant EU legislation is "THE WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE" 2003/88/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 4 November 2003 which the Netherlands Government voted FOR!

As usual poorly informed people blaming the EU and ignoring their own Goverment actions!

[TonyClifton]

Is it not weird that so many expats that live in non EU Switzerland, and which also happens to be the best country in Europe by a long way in terms of happiness, quality of life, education, unemployment levels, wealth et cetera are also so pro EU?

[bigblue2]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Is it not weird that so many expats that live in non EU Switzerland, and which also happens to be the best country in Europe by a long way in terms of happiness, quality of life, education, unemployment levels, wealth et cetera are also so pro EU?

?? as it was never in the EU, and has a deal with EU how is that in any way relevant???

loz?

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Is it not weird that so many expats that live in non EU Switzerland, and which also happens to be the best country in Europe by a long way in terms of happiness, quality of life, education, unemployment levels, wealth et cetera are also so pro EU?

Switzerland has long established trade links and agreements with the EU, as well as FMOP. They are not in the "no deal" scenario that is apparently sought after by the Brexiters.

Oh, and Switzerland doesn't seem to be at the haphazard mercy of a government made up of spoilt, greedy children.

[grumpygrapefruit]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Is it not weird that so many expats that live in non EU Switzerland, and which also happens to be the best country in Europe by a long way in terms of happiness, quality of life, education, unemployment levels, wealth et cetera are also so pro EU?

Well, CH has a very beneficial free trade deal with the EU and free movement of people (much more than the UK as we're also in Schengen) so we really can see the benefits of being in the EU (even tough we're not "fully" in )

	Quote:	marton
	Good bluff but it turns out the relevant EU legislation is "THE WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE" 2003/88/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 4 November 2003 which the Netherlands Government voted FOR! As usual poorly informed people blaming the EU and ignoring their own Goverment actions!

Poorly informed he says...

The main cause of this is 97/81/EG and besides that 75/117/EEG, 92/85/EG and 2003/88/EG are relevant.

The problem is that due to recent court cases like C-518/15, ECLI:EU:C:2018:82 (Nijvel) r.o. 30 from the European court there has to be a chance in how these rulings need to be interpreted, and that is what s the Dutch over.

Nice try tho...

Anyway I recall having told myself in previous posts to avoid discussions with you, I'd like to stick to my own advise

	Quote:	marton
	Good bluff but it turns out the relevant EU legislation is "THE WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE" 2003/88/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 4 November 2003 which the Netherlands Government voted FOR! As usual poorly informed people blaming the EU and ignoring their own Goverment actions!

The tragedy is after a burn this good, there are no firemen left to put him out.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Is it not weird that so many expats that live in non EU Switzerland, and which also happens to be the best country in Europe by a long way in terms of happiness, quality of life, education, unemployment levels, wealth et cetera are also so pro EU?

Best country? What does that even mean? I am a British expat immigrant to Switzerland, but I'm not here because Switzerland isn't part of the EU, and I care deeply that the EU remains intact, and that the UK should remain in the EU for more valid reasons than anyone can give to as why the UK should leave the EU. So no its not weird.

	Quote:	TobiasM
	Best country? What does that even mean? I am a British expat immigrant to Switzerland, but I'm not here because Switzerland isn't part of the EU, and I care deeply that the EU remains intact, and that the UK should remain in the EU for more valid reasons than anyone can give to as why the UK should leave the EU. So no its not weird.

Problem with the validity of such reasons is how heavy do you weigh each reason?

And yes for me coming to Switzerland was also based on the fact that they are out of the EU.

	Quote:
	The tragedy is after a burn this good, there are no firemen left to put him out.

What burn?

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	reids
	How does it break democracy? democracy is the will of the people

It is not. You don't get to define democracy to suit you. Democracy is the agreed set of principles by which a country is governed. And they are applied consistently regardless of how the people feel about them until such time as it is agreed to change these principles.

For most countries in Europe that means a sovereign parliament, there is no will of the people BS in this. You elect a parliament who make the decisions on your behalf and if you don't like it, you change your representatives at the next election. That is the agreed form of democracy that applies to the UK. People seem to conveniently for get that after the advisory referendum, the voters were given the option to elect a new parliament and in doing so they failed to give any part a mandate to carry out BREXIT and the is the actual will of the people as expressed in their sovereign parliament.

If you want to talk about the will of the people then you need to look at either Switzerland or Ireland. In Ireland, when they vote in a referendum they change the actual law of the land, the government and parliament have no role in it, once the returning officer certifies the result of a referendum it is the law. And because it is such an important decision, provision is provided for any citizen to challenge the outcome of a referendum by taking a case to the Irish Supreme Court and one of the grounds is: that accurate factual information was not provided to the voters (what a surprise).

	Quote:
	Problem with the validity of such reasons is how heavy do you weigh each reason? And yes for me coming to Switzerland was also based on the fact that they are out of the EU.

If they had no connection or mandates with the EU, you probably wouldn't have had the relatively easy luxury of choosing to be here, though.

Unless you'd married a Swiss and/or beat all the local hires to earn a job here.

JRM is looking very enthusiastic over Johnson's shoulder in the HoC right now.

Johnson doing sterling work not answering questions, lots of vile heckling when MPs are being very direct. Bercow is having to work hard to keep a lot of them in order.


Jess Phillips is so impassioned she looks close to tears. She's trying to get Johnson to admit he was wrong.

[marton]

	Quote:
	What burn?

You blamed the EU for regulations you claimed your politicians did not want when those same politicians voted for exactly those regulations

It's shameful. Is anyone watching the live debate? Johnson is practically thumbing his nose at everyone.

	Quote:
	It's shameful. Is anyone watching the live debate? Johnson is practically thumbing his nose at everyone.

He has no where to go. No other song to sing. This is it for him. On repeat.

	Quote:	Swisstree
	He has no where to go. No other song to sing. This is it for him. On repeat.

MPs are detailing the hatemail, the death threats they are receiving, using the hateful combative language that Johnson spouts and he is smiling. He's disgusting. It's shameful beyond measure.