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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #22701  
Old 25.09.2019, 22:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Good man, Rory! Nails it.
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  #22702  
Old 25.09.2019, 22:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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...the rightwing tabloids are frothing about unelected judges which is a dangerous path.
Totally agree. One of the reasons not to elect judges is to avoid the rulings being influenced by the popular sentiments of the day, because the whims of voters change rapidly but the law should not.

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... UK Bought Leave and it has to be delivered.
Okay, but what exactly does that delivery look like? That's what all the fussing is about. Parliament said they'd implement the result of the vote, but they can't agree on what that implementation looks like. That's not the fault of either the Leave or the Remain campaigns. That's the devil in the details no one thought about.

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...Because we have voted to leave. that ship has already sailed.
Or not. It was an advisory referendum, not binding. As such, I see nothing wrong with another advisory referendum. BUT - I am not sure if you put all the options on a ballot you'd get UK voters to choose one of the options with a clear majority. I think the divisions in parliament reflect the divisions in the voting population.

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page and pages ago it was asked, and never answered, what real advantage is there to leaving?
Because then Brexiteers will finally be quiet? Kidding. I think "advantage" very much depends on whose perspective you're viewing. For hardliners, the advantage is you're out and any consequences can be dealt with later.
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  #22703  
Old 25.09.2019, 22:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Good man, Rory! Nails it.
Bugger, was changing LR. What did he say?

Edit: didn't he just.

Last edited by RufusB; 25.09.2019 at 22:33.
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  #22704  
Old 25.09.2019, 22:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Bugger, was changing LR. What did he say?

Edit: didn't he just.
Rewind the BBC 24 hour news link below on the live debate in Parliament with the PM. You need
to go back to 20:15 for see the start of Rory Stewarts question to the PM, for others that
might have missed it.


BBC 24 Hour TV News

Last edited by John William; 25.09.2019 at 22:53.
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  #22705  
Old 25.09.2019, 22:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Rewind the BBC 24 hour news link below on the live debate in Parliament with the PM. You need
to go back to 20:15 for see the start of Rory Stewarts question to the PM, for others that
might have missed it.


BBC 24 Hour TV News
I made it 20:14 but yes. Worth a look.
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  #22706  
Old 25.09.2019, 22:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Bugger, was changing LR. What did he say?

Edit: didn't he just.
The gist:

He made reference to behaviour, conduct, respect for the rule of law within the tory party and that Johnson is tip toeing on a dangerous path. His strategy is of pitting brexit against remain, Scotland against England and people against the parliament.

Our relationship with the EU will be required for the next 40 years and is too important and Boris needs to speak with respect and moderation, compassion for opponents to lay down a foundation for the future.

Good man, Rory.
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  #22707  
Old 25.09.2019, 23:39
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's shameful. Is anyone watching the live debate? Johnson is practically thumbing his nose at everyone.
Yes. It's the most astonishing display of sheer arrogance that I've witnessed in a very long time. I'm on catch up so haven't seen Rory yet.
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  #22708  
Old 25.09.2019, 23:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Yes. It's the most astonishing display of sheer arrogance that I've witnessed in a very long time. I'm on catch up so haven't seen Rory yet.
It gets worse. My jaw was on the floor several times. He is such a condescending arrogant entitled shit. The half-smirk, the leaning-on-a-bar insouciant body language. Appalling.
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  #22709  
Old 25.09.2019, 23:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Had to look up 'insoucient'. Thanks for the new word.
I'm up to where Bercow has had to remind all the house about inflammatory language and terminology, and I'm seething every time he says 'surrender bill'. I'd have punched his lights out by now.
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  #22710  
Old 26.09.2019, 01:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It gets worse. My jaw was on the floor several times. He is such a condescending arrogant entitled shit. The half-smirk, the leaning-on-a-bar insouciant body language. Appalling.
Just on the home stretch of it all now. Haven't got up to the walk out yet. What's sticking in my craw is that the PM has on several occasions refered to female member of opposition parties as 'she' instead of the proper term of address 'the Honourable lady'. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/82149.stm
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  #22711  
Old 26.09.2019, 08:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It is not. You don't get to define democracy to suit you. Democracy is the agreed set of principles by which a country is governed. And they are applied consistently regardless of how the people feel about them until such time as it is agreed to change these principles.

For most countries in Europe that means a sovereign parliament, there is no will of the people BS in this. You elect a parliament who make the decisions on your behalf and if you don't like it, you change your representatives at the next election. That is the agreed form of democracy that applies to the UK. People seem to conveniently for get that after the advisory referendum, the voters were given the option to elect a new parliament and in doing so they failed to give any part a mandate to carry out BREXIT and the is the actual will of the people as expressed in their sovereign parliament.

If you want to talk about the will of the people then you need to look at either Switzerland or Ireland. In Ireland, when they vote in a referendum they change the actual law of the land, the government and parliament have no role in it, once the returning officer certifies the result of a referendum it is the law. And because it is such an important decision, provision is provided for any citizen to challenge the outcome of a referendum by taking a case to the Irish Supreme Court and one of the grounds is: that accurate factual information was not provided to the voters (what a surprise).
Democracy is the will of the people, either expressed through referendum or through representatives elected to act in the peoples interests. In one you are asking 'what do you the people want to happen' and the other 'who do you, the people, want to act on your behalf'. In either case, the principle is the same, i.e. that you ask the people.

Democracy is one of several political systems, it is not the set of principles by which a country is governed, that is a constitution. You don't get to define democracy to suit you.
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  #22712  
Old 26.09.2019, 08:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Bigblue2, Sandgrounder and grumpygrapefruit, the UK is currently seeking a deal with the EU. Switzerland has benefitted from being outside the EU and has full control over her fiscal policy, taxation and trade. A loose relationship with the EU for the UK could also have its benefits as Switzerland shown.

TobiasM, I don’t understand what wasn’t clear for you in what I wrote. Various polls, articles and institutions consistently have Switzerland at the top of lists when it comes to rating the best countries in which to live.
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  #22713  
Old 26.09.2019, 08:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You blamed the EU for regulations you claimed your politicians did not want when those same politicians voted for exactly those regulations
True, but I also think there are some regulations that I find absurd - for instance the mechanism of exporting medicines within EU even when a country's needs will be left uncovered and that led to cheaper countries suffering medicines shortages because exporters are greedy (I'll tell you more when I have time) but as you say, I wouldn't blame EU, I'd blame the politicians for that because they are the ones who propose, elaborate and vote for those laws. The lack of accountability of our politicians is to blame, not the EU. I can see where some frustrations might come from, but some things can be changed. When there is a will, there is a way..
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  #22714  
Old 26.09.2019, 10:33
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Bigblue2, Sandgrounder and grumpygrapefruit, the UK is currently seeking a deal with the EU. Switzerland has benefited from being outside the EU and has full control over her fiscal policy, taxation and trade. A loose relationship with the EU for the UK could also have its benefits as Switzerland shown.
The idea that the UK would follow the examples of Switzerland and Norway's relation with EU is very 2016...
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  #22715  
Old 26.09.2019, 10:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The idea that the UK would follow the examples of Switzerland and Norway's relation with EU is very 2016...
Yay. Schengen and freedom of movement!
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  #22716  
Old 26.09.2019, 11:01
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The idea that the UK would follow the examples of Switzerland and Norway's relation with EU is very 2016...
Well, 3 years later who knows what "the example of Switzerland" will be?
Signing the "Rahmenvertrag" will be a pretty different thing from what it was 2016.
Not signing the "Rahmenvertrag" might be Brexit-like? (Quite more factual though. )
Maybe if the "Rahmenvertrag" will not be signed, GB can learn from Switzerland how to deal with such a situation? Wanna postpone the Brexit until then? )
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  #22717  
Old 26.09.2019, 11:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

The revelation about Brexit propaganda materials in some primary schools was awful. I'd seen it on a Media Education FB group and was hoping it was merely a mock up.
. But no.
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Old 26.09.2019, 12:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Bigblue2, Sandgrounder and grumpygrapefruit, the UK is currently seeking a deal with the EU. Switzerland has benefitted from being outside the EU and has full control over her fiscal policy, taxation and trade. A loose relationship with the EU for the UK could also have its benefits as Switzerland shown.
The crazy thing is that, in reality the UK doesn't want that either. The current proposition would effectively give the UK free EEA membership without FMOP, but even that's not good enough.
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  #22719  
Old 26.09.2019, 13:02
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Rewind the BBC 24 hour news link below on the live debate in Parliament with the PM. You need
to go back to 20:15 for see the start of Rory Stewarts question to the PM, for others that
might have missed it.
BBC 24 Hour TV News
Thanks for the tip. It's easy to scroll to 20:15 on Parliamentlive.tv. Stewart seems so much more decent than Johnson, but it doesn't look as if Tory party members rate decency very highly if Johnson was their choice.

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The revelation about Brexit propaganda materials in some primary schools was awful. I'd seen it on a Media Education FB group and was hoping it was merely a mock up.
. But no.
Hadn't heard that and had to Google it. If the government wasn't responsible, wonder who was.

Brexit ‘propaganda broadcast in 3,000 primary schools’

Quote:
Writing on Twitter, Stella Creasy MP confirmed she did not believe the adverts were government-funded.

She said: ‘These slides were certainly shown in Walthamstow and across country today but don’t think it’s govenment-funded.

‘Tbh though more concerned PM didn’t seem to have a problem with idea in first place.’
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  #22720  
Old 26.09.2019, 13:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Democracy is the will of the people, either expressed through referendum or through representatives elected to act in the peoples interests. In one you are asking 'what do you the people want to happen' and the other 'who do you, the people, want to act on your behalf'. In either case, the principle is the same, i.e. that you ask the people.

Democracy is one of several political systems, it is not the set of principles by which a country is governed, that is a constitution. You don't get to define democracy to suit you.
Well there are different methods of democracy, in Switzerland its direct, and in the UK it’s parliamentary, i.e. we elect an MP we think or believe will represent our interests, and hopefully they do, when it comes to Commons votes on Bills and Legislation. The UK has never been a direct democracy, so we really shouldn’t have had any referendum. Interestingly the UK membership of the EU barely registered a blip on most people’s radars, at least until the suggestion of a referendum was raised and the Murdoch media machinery went into action. But just because it was a referendum won in favour of leaving that doesn’t mean that 3 years later, and in the face of overwhelming evidence that the media lied and membership of the EU is being shown to be rather more beneficial then negative, that the vote would still be leave!

Basically the UK needs another vote and only one based on the facts of what any deal entails. Not to leave the EU without any deal at all. It’s interesting seeing the prepare for the 31st .gov.uk advertising, the fact that no agreement has still been made in Parliament and it’s all those idiots under BJ pushing hard for the 31st leave without a deal!
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