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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #22721  
Old 26.09.2019, 13:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

As someone who voted Leave - and who still, in principle, would like England, at least, to leave the European Union - I want to see another referendum.

Leaving like this - with such appalling lack of preparation, such shocking disrespect for the law, Parliament and the Queen (and I write this as a republican!), and not even the slightest scrap of effort to heal the dreadful divisions between citizens - leaving like this is no victory.

I never thought I'd come to despise my own government more than the arrogant bastards who run the EU, but there we are.

Strange times we live in.
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  #22722  
Old 26.09.2019, 14:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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As someone who voted Leave - and who still, in principle, would like England, at least, to leave the European Union - I want to see another referendum.

Leaving like this - with such appalling lack of preparation, such shocking disrespect for the law, Parliament and the Queen (and I write this as a republican!), and not even the slightest scrap of effort to heal the dreadful divisions between citizens - leaving like this is no victory.

I never thought I'd come to despise my own government more than the arrogant bastards who run the EU, but there we are.

Strange times we live in.
Vote is rerun six months from now. Remain win 51% to 49% on a lower turnout than last time.

Now what do we do ?

Rerunning a vote is the worst thing we could do.

The lib dems lied about student loans, Blair lied about iraq, they lie all the time, but we wait until the next election and let the public decide.

We need to leave the EU, as was decreed by the referendum and then have another one in a few years to see if we want to stay out or come back in again.

Anything else will make the situation much much worse.
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  #22723  
Old 26.09.2019, 14:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Thanks for the tip. It's easy to scroll to 20:15 on Parliamentlive.tv. Stewart seems so much more decent than Johnson, but it doesn't look as if Tory party members rate decency very highly if Johnson was their choice.
If you go forward to 21:41:44 the PM walked out of the House just as the points of order were about to be heard. I'm still stunned and disgusted by last night's display from the PM. Apparently there were MPs and members of the press in tears at what they were witnessing, and according to the usual HoC journos, a few MPs were advised by the police that it wasn't safe for them to go home last night (think it was Beth Rigby who said that on Sky News but can't swear to it).

Edit: Found it...

"Some MPs were in tears tonight, some walked out, some told me they feared they won’t be able to return home because of the language the PM is using, some told me abuse on twitter has already got worse tonight:"
https://twitter.com/HannahAlOthman/s...72406298173441
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  #22724  
Old 26.09.2019, 14:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Unbelievable arrogance.
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  #22725  
Old 26.09.2019, 17:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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We need to leave the EU, as was decreed by the referendum and then have another one in a few years to see if we want to stay out or come back in again.

Anything else will make the situation much much worse.
That is just your opinion. There is no legal basis for acting on any referendum held in the UK, no matter what you may think. Holding another referendum and ignoring the previous one is just as valid an opinion.

As for making thinks much worse that is total BS, it could just as equally or more make things worse to continue down a path that has so far been unachievable.

And as for deciding to hold a referendum later in order to rejoin.... it does not work that way, you can have a referendum to apply for membership, but that does not mean you will be accepted and it will almost certainly not be on the same terms - no budget rebates, acceptance of the Euro, Schengen etc...

So the idea that you can try it out for a while and then go back is BS, back will not be an option.
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  #22726  
Old 26.09.2019, 17:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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That is just your opinion. There is no legal basis for acting on any referendum held in the UK, no matter what you may think. Holding another referendum and ignoring the previous one is just as valid an opinion.

As for making thinks much worse that is total BS, it could just as equally or more make things worse to continue down a path that has so far been unachievable.

And as for deciding to hold a referendum later in order to rejoin.... it does not work that way, you can have a referendum to apply for membership, but that does not mean you will be accepted and it will almost certainly not be on the same terms - no budget rebates, acceptance of the Euro, Schengen etc...

So the idea that you can try it out for a while and then go back is BS, back will not be an option.
Anything we put on here is opinions. I think having another referendum makes it worse, you think we wouldn't be allowed to rejoin on the same terms, which I think is BS.

Its a good insight to help understand why people are so angry though. Most of the UK thought they were voting in a referendum which would be enacted. If it turns out that some legal experts triumphantly prove that it was only advisory so it didn't matter a hoot and the little people can just go back to their little lives while the important people who really understand the details of law get things done, I think they might get pretty annoyed. But you can save a post and just skip it if your only going to tell me its all BS again because you know your law just so much better than people like me.
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  #22727  
Old 26.09.2019, 17:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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We need to leave the EU, as was decreed by the referendum and then have another one in a few years to see if we want to stay out or come back in again.

Anything else will make the situation much much worse.
I'm not so sure it WILL make things much worse TBH. It only seems to be the main war-cry from the right wing press that there will be civil unrest and the UK will descend into anarchy, but will it?

Most people are just sick of the whole thing, barely anyone has any confidence in the current government so anyone with half a brain cell can see that they can hardly be tasked with managing the country's future in this state of incompetence.

If Brexit is cancelled, nothing will change. Probably things will stabilise over the following few months (business confidence, the pound, etc), maybe there will be a GE?

I honestly don't think there will be the apocalyptic scenes the Daily Wail and The Sun are squealing about.
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  #22728  
Old 26.09.2019, 17:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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That is just your opinion. There is no legal basis for acting on any referendum held in the UK, no matter what you may think. Holding another referendum and ignoring the previous one is just as valid an opinion.

As for making thinks much worse that is total BS, it could just as equally or more make things worse to continue down a path that has so far been unachievable.

And as for deciding to hold a referendum later in order to rejoin.... it does not work that way, you can have a referendum to apply for membership, but that does not mean you will be accepted and it will almost certainly not be on the same terms - no budget rebates, acceptance of the Euro, Schengen etc...

So the idea that you can try it out for a while and then go back is BS, back will not be an option.
Holding another referendum until the current result has either been executed or declined doesn't make sense.

As for re-entering: it would only be good if there would be no rebates and special conditions etc. would also show much more commitment on being an EU member and in my opinion only a good thing.
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  #22729  
Old 26.09.2019, 17:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If it turns out that some legal experts triumphantly prove that it was only advisory so it didn't matter a hoot and the little people can just go back to their little lives while the important people who really understand the details of law get things done, I think they might get pretty annoyed.
Legal Experts? 10 seconds on Google would have told anyone interested that under our parliamentary system (i.e. representative democracy), referenda can only ever be advisory...there is no such thing as a legally binding referendum.
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  #22730  
Old 26.09.2019, 17:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I'm not so sure it WILL make things much worse TBH. It only seems to be the main war-cry from the right wing press that there will be civil unrest and the UK will descend into anarchy, but will it?

Most people are just sick of the whole thing, barely anyone has any confidence in the current government so anyone with half a brain cell can see that they can hardly be tasked with managing the country's future in this state of incompetence.

If Brexit is cancelled, nothing will change. Probably things will stabilise over the following few months (business confidence, the pound, etc), maybe there will be a GE?

I honestly don't think there will be the apocalyptic scenes the Daily Wail and The Sun are squealing about.
I'd agree except it was never a three state decision. If we were in situation A and had chosen B or C then had all this junk and said "right, forget it we're staying as we are, in situation A" it would b ok.

But we didnt. We were in Situation A and we voted on staying in A or going to B. Going to B has been stopped by parliament for 3 years now and in fact what you'd be saying is "we're not doing B, so we are going to revert to A, i.e. the decision you voted against and won against 3 years ago".

If A had been "closer EU integation" and B was "out" we'd kind of be ok as going back to the earlier was different. but we didnt.
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  #22731  
Old 26.09.2019, 17:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And as for deciding to hold a referendum later in order to rejoin.... it does not work that way, you can have a referendum to apply for membership, but that does not mean you will be accepted and it will almost certainly not be on the same terms - no budget rebates, acceptance of the Euro, Schengen etc...
I think if you're totally honest and objective about it, all these special exceptions were on borrowed time anyway.
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  #22732  
Old 26.09.2019, 17:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Legal Experts? 10 seconds on Google would have told anyone interested that under our parliamentary system (i.e. representative democracy), referenda can only ever be advisory...there is no such thing as a legally binding referendum.
thats just weird because I dont remember any of the politicians saying that during teh entire campaign, or sky news, or BBC or anyone really. It only seemed to turn up when all the squabbling began.

Did I just miss it or something ?
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  #22733  
Old 26.09.2019, 17:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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thats just weird because I dont remember any of the politicians saying that during teh entire campaign, or sky news, or BBC or anyone really. It only seemed to turn up when all the squabbling began.

Did I just miss it or something ?
Possibly you missed it, or possibly politicians you listened to, get this, didn't tell you the whole truth.

I suspect it has been a precedent for hundreds of years, so it certainly isn't some new invention.
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  #22734  
Old 26.09.2019, 17:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Possibly you missed it, or possibly politicians you listened to, get this, didn't tell you the whole truth.

I suspect it has been a precedent for hundreds of years, so it certainly isn't some new invention.
I might have done. But the PM at the time - David Cameron - in his speech to the entire country said "the Government will implement what you decide" if I remember correctly ? Are you saying he just made that up ? Its a brave one, if so, with the entire country watching, all 600 MP's signing up to it and it appearing in the manifesto's of the political parties during the 2017 election. All this and they all seem to have missed it. No wonder the country is going to the dogs.
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  #22735  
Old 26.09.2019, 18:02
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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thats just weird because I dont remember any of the politicians saying that during teh entire campaign, or sky news, or BBC or anyone really. It only seemed to turn up when all the squabbling began.

Did I just miss it or something ?
It was no secret that it was just advisory, right from the start. I imagine that anyone who said it at the time was poo-pooed as a Remoaner, though.

Cameron was the one that said the nation's decision would be carried out but, perhaps, that was a bit ambitious (or loose and fast election-talk ) because what he should have said was "Parliament will take on board the nation's decision when it comes to decisions on matters concerning the EU".

All the times that politicians fluff, double-speak and dance around in that non-committal way and he chose this referendum to be resolute and definite.
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  #22736  
Old 26.09.2019, 18:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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As someone who voted Leave - and who still, in principle, would like England, at least, to leave the European Union - I want to see another referendum.
But where is the point of having another referendum, no matter what the outcome there is not way to ensure that the result will be carried out. As we have seen, even after the referendum the people failed to elect a parliament capable of carrying out their wishes.

You don't have a sovereign people in the UK, so I fail to see how a referendum will ever bring closure.

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Leaving like this - with such appalling lack of preparation, such shocking disrespect for the law, Parliament and the Queen (and I write this as a republican!), and not even the slightest scrap of effort to heal the dreadful divisions between citizens - leaving like this is no victory.

I never thought I'd come to despise my own government more than the arrogant bastards who run the EU, but there we are.

Strange times we live in.
I would say the first thing that is needed is constitutional reform, but it is hard to see how that can happen with all the self interests in parliament....
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  #22737  
Old 26.09.2019, 18:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Legal Experts? 10 seconds on Google would have told anyone interested that under our parliamentary system (i.e. representative democracy), referenda can only ever be advisory...there is no such thing as a legally binding referendum.
The parliament could have made the Brexit poll legally binding, like they did with the 2011 referendum on changing the electoral system.
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  #22738  
Old 26.09.2019, 18:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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But we didnt. We were in Situation A and we voted on staying in A or going to B. Going to B has been stopped by parliament for 3 years now
That's because "going to B" has always been presented as leaving the EU "with a deal", and in particular with a deal that would be better than what we had. This is what the majority of the population were sold and understood (even if it's pure fantasy, as the reality proves today)

Parlament never opposed "going to B" (as in leaving the EU) per se - it did trigger article 50, didn't it? Parliament opposed strongly (and rightly so) leaving without a deal. It also opposed leaving with a very crappy deal, which is what May's deal was. In that sense parliament as a whole has been quite consistent to what the general population actually expected from this whole charade.

This has been said time and time again on this thread, just some people never accept it. THERE IS NO MAJORITY IN THE UK FOR LEAVING WITHOUT A DEAL. There never was, there never will be for the foreseeable future. The parliament reflects that, and any referendum or national election will prove it as well.
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  #22739  
Old 26.09.2019, 18:24
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Anything we put on here is opinions. I think having another referendum makes it worse, you think we wouldn't be allowed to rejoin on the same terms, which I think is BS.

Its a good insight to help understand why people are so angry though. Most of the UK thought they were voting in a referendum which would be enacted. If it turns out that some legal experts triumphantly prove that it was only advisory so it didn't matter a hoot and the little people can just go back to their little lives while the important people who really understand the details of law get things done, I think they might get pretty annoyed. But you can save a post and just skip it if your only going to tell me its all BS again because you know your law just so much better than people like me.
" If it turns out that some legal experts triumphantly prove that it was only advisory", that is not the case here, Parliament announced at the time it was only advisory. Under the UK Constitution mandatory referendums are not allowed because Parliament is Sovereign, not the people.

You can read the Act of Parliament which authorised the referendum here, it clearly states the referendum is not mandatory!
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this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented,
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  #22740  
Old 26.09.2019, 18:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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That's because "going to B" has always been presented as leaving the EU "with a deal", and in particular with a deal that would be better than what we had. This is what the majority of the population were sold and understood (even if it's pure fantasy, as the reality proves today)

Parlament never opposed "going to B" (as in leaving the EU) per se - it did trigger article 50, didn't it? Parliament opposed strongly (and rightly so) leaving without a deal. It also opposed leaving with a very crappy deal, which is what May's deal was. In that sense parliament as a whole has been quite consistent to what the general population actually expected from this whole charade.

This has been said time and time again on this thread, just some people never accept it. THERE IS NO MAJORITY IN THE UK FOR LEAVING WITHOUT A DEAL. There never was, there never will be for the foreseeable future. The parliament reflects that, and any referendum or national election will prove it as well.
They might not represent a majority of voters, but it wouldn't surprise me if a majority of those who were persuaded to vote Leave and of those who didn't vote at all or didn't vote Leave but now support Leave could also be persuaded that leaving without a deal is the way to go. If they're driven more by gut feeling than logic, why support leaving with a deal?
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