The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:
	The reason we are in such crap over Brexit is because the famous article 50 is so badly written. Nobody ever imagined anybody would want to leave the wondrous EU after creation, so only 2 lines were devoted to the possibility of leaving.

2 Lines is more than enough given how simple it is.

If you want to leave all you have to do is pay up for your already agreed upon commitments and you can leave and that is all there is to it.

The problem comes afterwards, if countries want to get into treaties or make new deals they also have to offer things, and since what countries want and what they can offer is different per country a single set of rules upfront would never ever work.

[bowlie]

As soon as people stop claiming the referendum was approved by ‘a majority of the electorate’ or that it is ‘the will of the people’ I will stop objecting when these claims are made.

It was approved by 37.44% of the electorate, or 26.95% of the people.

‘Nuff said.

[keyboardandmouse]

	Quote:	bowlie
	As soon as people stop claiming the referendum was approved by ‘a majority of the electorate’ or that it is ‘the will of the people’ I will stop objecting when these claims are made. It was approved by 37.44% of the electorate, or 26.95% of the people. ‘Nuff said.

or 52% of the people who voted would be another way.

or 3.39% of the EU (assuming the EU will be impacted by the change in relationship) we could say.

perhaps maybe the percentage vs percentage of population of the world would be good to throw in too.

anyway, I just read the guardian news site and Angela Merkl has effectively said its not going to happen (a deal) because of Ireland there is no solution, ever. So its now just two ways left: Either the UK leaves without a deal which will hurt, or the whole things gets cancelled and it goes back to remaining in.

	Quote:	bowlie
	As soon as people stop claiming the referendum was approved by ‘a majority of the electorate’ or that it is ‘the will of the people’ I will stop objecting when these claims are made. It was approved by 37.44% of the electorate, or 26.95% of the people. ‘Nuff said.

A majority of those who had enough interest in the matter to cast their vote did vote to leave the EU.

Whatever else people drag into this to downplay the result is irrelevant and a sign of being a bad loser.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	A majority of those who had enough interest in the matter to cast their vote did vote to leave the EU. Whatever else people drag into this to downplay the result is irrelevant and a sign of being a bad loser.

But she still won the popular vote.

Or something like that.

[bowlie]

	Quote:
	A majority of those who had enough interest in the matter to cast their vote did vote to leave the EU. Whatever else people drag into this to downplay the result is irrelevant and a sign of being a bad loser.

Please re-read my posts. I am objecting to claims that a majority of the electorate, or thst it’s thé will of the people. It was neither.

If rhose claims hadnt been made, I woudnt have objected.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	However the poorer people will be able to buy their frozen New Zealand lamb cheaper than today after a hard BREXIT, same for clothes. Clearly they knew what they were voting for.

Based on what? More likely prices for everything will go up and Brexit will be blamed, whether true or not.

[TonyClifton]

Following the latest news today of the phone call between Boris Johnson and Angela Merkel it seems we’re inching now towards a no deal Brexit. As a reluctant Brexiteer I find this a real shame. I wasn’t one who saw the EU as an entirely evil orginisation, however reasoned that the path it is on isn’t one that will best serve the interests of the UK and its people long term. It’s clear now that the EU would only let the UK leave on its terms, making a satisfactory deal impossible. The effective economic annexation of Northern Ireland would never be acceptable to a serious UK Government. What the EU fear more than anything else is that Brexit is a success, so I’m almost certain that a Canada style FTA will unlikely ever be allowed by the EU too.

Michel Barnier said something a few days ago, “We cannot change what we are” which reminded me why I voted to leave. The EU is not driven by democracy, or economics, or even reality, but rather a dogmatic political ideology that trumps anything else.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	Whatever else people drag into this to downplay the result is irrelevant and a sign of being a bad loser.

Not at all. It's the only occasion in my lifetime where British people have actively voted to lose rights that affect their day to day lives. This isn't being outnumbered on a matter of principle. This is millions of British citizens' rights and freedoms being relegated to 'collateral damage'.

If people always rolled over and accepted the majority outcome, working class people and women would still not have the vote. Homosexuals would still be terrified of having their sexuality revealed. Racism would still be a barrier to owning a home, education and career advancement.

Those people were all fighting to gain rights. We're fighting to not have our rights taken away.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	Based on what? More likely prices for everything will go up and Brexit will be blamed, whether true or not.

I'm still laughing at FMF's delusion that 'poor people' can afford to buy lamb regardless of where it comes from. Chicken on a good day, steak on your birthday, lamb for Easter Sunday.

[Ato]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Following the latest news today of the phone call between Boris Johnson and Angela Merkel it seems we’re inching now towards a no deal Brexit. As a reluctant Brexiteer I find this a real shame. I wasn’t one who saw the EU as an entirely evil orginisation, however reasoned that the path it is on isn’t one that will best serve the interests of the UK and its people long term. It’s clear now that the EU would only let the UK leave on its terms, making a satisfactory deal impossible. The effective economic annexation of Northern Ireland would never be acceptable to a serious UK Government. What the EU fear more than anything else is that Brexit is a success, so I’m almost certain that a Canada style FTA will unlikely ever be allowed by the EU too. Michel Barnier said something a few days ago, “We cannot change what we are” which reminded me why I voted to leave. The EU is not driven by democracy, or economics, or even reality, but rather a dogmatic political ideology that trumps anything else.

That phone call was another effort at trying to make it look like he's making an effort. He was told to deal with the negotiators and stop calling heads of state, but it looks good to be doing something.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I'm still laughing at FMF's delusion that 'poor people' can afford to buy lamb regardless of where it comes from. Chicken on a good day, steak on your birthday, lamb for Easter Sunday.

However they have money to smoke, drink & apparently many poor people drive cars. It's a choice how you spend your money. I foolishly assumed that people with cars could not be described as poor, but have been pulled up on that one more than once.

[FrankZappa]

Ironic that the UK fishing industry is likely to be one of the first victims of a no-deal Brexit: https://www.theguardian.com/business...no-deal-brexit

[bigblue2]

wow so many new members seem to have joined EF just to comment on this thread

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Ato
	That phone call was another effort at trying to make it look like he's making an effort. He was told to deal with the negotiators and stop calling heads of state, but it looks good to be doing something.

I’m sorry but this simply isn’t true. Boris Johnson wants a deal and has made a proposal to EU negotiators with concessions made on Northern Ireland which until now have been rejected by the DUP.

[Ato]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I’m sorry but this simply isn’t true. Boris Johnson wants a deal and has made a proposal to EU negotiators with concessions made on Northern Ireland which until now have been rejected by the DUP.

Holding back until the last minute to deliver a proposal to the EU is an action, trying to shut parliment to prevent any further debate on the matter is an action. Telling every reporter that he really wants a deal is just hot air.
As everyone was told in kindergarden, actions speak louder than words.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Not at all. It's the only occasion in my lifetime where British people have actively voted to lose rights that affect their day to day lives. This isn't being outnumbered on a matter of principle. This is millions of British citizens' rights and freedoms being relegated to 'collateral damage'. If people always rolled over and accepted the majority outcome, working class people and women would still not have the vote. Homosexuals would still be terrified of having their sexuality revealed. Racism would still be a barrier to owning a home, education and career advancement. Those people were all fighting to gain rights. We're fighting to not have our rights taken away.

So you mean to say that people living in a democracy should not accept the outcome of a democratic process?

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	However they have money to smoke, drink & apparently many poor people drive cars. It's a choice how you spend your money. I foolishly assumed that people with cars could not be described as poor, but have been pulled up on that one more than once.

You forgot the latest wide screen telly

	Quote:	FrankZappa
	Ironic that the UK fishing industry is likely to be one of the first victims of a no-deal Brexit: https://www.theguardian.com/business...no-deal-brexit

Of course, everybody will be eating lamb

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I’m sorry but this simply isn’t true. Boris Johnson wants a deal and has made a proposal to EU negotiators with concessions made on Northern Ireland which until now have been rejected by the DUP.

BJ just wants to look good.

Cummings has in reality made a proposal he fully knows can never be acceptable. Just to try to look innocent when it doesn't work.