The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	Pray, tell me, if indeed this is the case, exactly which trough do they presume to stick their snout's in after the election ?

The may not stand for the Tory party, but that does not mean they won't stand, nor that they will break up the local party structure nor divide the vote....

In every constituency the local party almost always consists of a core group that are loyal to the part, a group that are loyal to a particular candidate and the swing voters. And when this kind of infighting begins on a wide scale anything could happen...

	Quote:	curley
	Funny. Why wouldn't bother me that in the least if I were British? Who wants to reelect people who are neither capable of convincing the others of their stand nor of finding compromises?

In what way is a manifesto pledge for a no-deal Brexit a compromise?

[curley]

	Quote:
	In what way is a manifesto pledge for a no-deal Brexit a compromise?

I did not refer to the subject they fight about this time. I referred to - was it 50? - politicians threatening to resign if they don't get their will (and what - I hope - they think is the will of the people who voted them in. Not sure they're bothered about those after getting the seat though).

They were elected to represent their group of people and to DO the job, not to run away when it's not easy. ROFL. In cases where they succumb, they're expected to pick it up from there and carry on/make the best of it.

In a country in which referenda are a seldom thing and when they take place are not even taken seriously, the mp's are all the people have.

So, nope, if "my" mp took to threatening of leaving in times of difficulties it would not bother me. I would wonder why I voted for such a plonker the first time.

	Quote:	curley
	I did not refer to the subject they fight about this time. I referred to - was it 50? - politicians threatening to resign if they don't get their will (and what - I hope - they think is the will of the people who voted them in. Not sure they're bothered about those after getting the seat though). They were elected to represent their group of people and to DO the job, not to run away when it's not easy. ROFL. In cases where they succumb, they're expected to pick it up from there and carry on/make the best of it. In a country in which referenda are a seldom thing and when they take place are not even taken seriously, the mp's are all the people have. So, nope, if "my" mp took to threatening of leaving in times of difficulties it would not bother me. I would wonder why I voted for such a plonker the first time.

They are not resigning, they are not threatening to leave, they have simply announced they will not stand in the next election as Tory party candidates if the party has no deal written into its manifesto. They are stating on a matter of principal that they cannot stand as a representative of a party that disagrees with them on such a fundamental matter. They are doing it at the next election so you will have the choice of whether to vote for a blinkered Brexit fanatic or someone more reasonable.

The ERG have really done a wonderful job of putting the blame for the current mess on remainers when in reality it is their own inflexibility and unwillingness to compromise or indeed support their own party that really lead to May's deal being rejected.

	Quote:	Raffles
	I'm from the Midlands and yes it is full of brexiteers. Though they did not understand the consequences of what Brexit would actually mean. They like the rest of the population were taken on a ride by Johnson and Farage, and with the help of right wing elements it's turned into all out racism. Arguments in the street when someone speaks with a foreign accent it's not getting any better. Point 1.A few weeks ago I took my lady into a cafe in Yorkshire, it was quite full so I told her to find a seat while I got the drinks, when I sat down she was in a conversation with a old lady, the lady said you'll be alright after Brexit your not black or Asian. Point 2. I took her to the Black Country Museum. We went for a coffee, I needed the amenities so asked my lady to get the drinks. I came back no drinks, they've run out off coffee she said, though at the time two other ladies were ordering coffee. Then a miracle happened two coffees appeared. My Lady is American so it was her accent they were against. Brexit was, (is) totally misunderstood by the masses.

Am also from the Midlands and now live in the North West. The above is purely anecdotal and reflects very little of the truth. I call BS. Also, your "lady"?

Also, if you're from the Midlands surely it should be "we" not "they"?

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	curley
	They were elected to represent their group of people and to DO the job, not to run away when it's not easy. ROFL. In cases where they succumb, they're expected to pick it up from there and carry on/make the best of it. In a country in which referenda are a seldom thing and when they take place are not even taken seriously, the mp's are all the people have. So, nope, if "my" mp took to threatening of leaving in times of difficulties it would not bother me. I would wonder why I voted for such a plonker the first time.

An MPs job is represent all of their constituents on the political stage, regardless of whether they voted for them or not. In the UK, most MPs have a surgery on Fridays when they return from Westminster, where their constituents can book an appointment to speak to them one to one. I once had occasion to seek the assistance of the last Wigan MP (Labour) even though I wasn't a Labour voter. He heard my problem, wrote a letter and the problem was resolved. For bigger stuff, they raise issues with colleagues and/or in the HoC to seek out a political solution. That's their job.

My current Windsor MP (Conservative) has the nickname 'Absent Adam' because he very rarely holds surgeries or meets with his constituents. He's resolutely follows the PMs line despite being the MP for a remain area, which has caused a lot of antagonism towards him. He'll be very lucky to keep his seat because Windsor is moderate Conservative / LibDem with virtually no Labour presence, and a high percentage of international residents who work in the city or at Heathrow.

The thing with the EU referendum is that it's a tool of direct democracy and that result is butting against the traditional role of an MP in a representative democracy. Imagine you're an MP who's active in their constituency, and almost every surgery you hear these concerns and fears:
My vote isn't being respected.
My spouse hasn't been given Settled Status.
My business will struggle massively under a No Deal scenario.
My job will go with a No Deal Brexit.
My children are being told to "go home" by kids at school even though they were born and raised here.
My local pharmacist is experiencing a shortage of the insulin/epilepsy tablets that keep me alive and I'm scared.
Our youth centre/wildlife centre/country park/etc is going to lose it's EU grant. How will the government help to make up that shortfall in funding?

Who do you prioritise?

Any MP with a grain of common sense will see that there's a theme here, and wonder if they could kill several birds with one stone by rejecting a hard, no deal brexit. It might mean that they get thrown out of their party. It might mean that they lose their seat at the next election, but their overriding duty is to their constituents.

When the Conservative party has taken a sharp move the right, and Labour a sharp move to the left, it's very possible to be a traditional MP for either party and feel that, whilst your core values haven't changed, the current values of the cabinet do not share your views. It's like when your favourite band release that tricky third album and it turns out to be a pile of dog poop. You still love the first two albums, but can't embrace the third 'just because...' and why should you?!

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	In what way is a manifesto pledge for a no-deal Brexit a compromise?

The problem with a manifesto is that it is only possible if the electorate give you the mandate to carry it out. Otherwise everything becomes a compromise and you don’t get to vote on the compromise.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	Also, your "lady"?

That's nowt! My OH has two pet names for me that he frequently uses in public and our friends now use to wind me up. Our neighbour even used one of them the other day because it makes him laugh.

[Raffles]

	Quote:
	Am also from the Midlands and now live in the North West. The above is purely anecdotal and reflects very little of the truth. I call BS. Also, your "lady"? Also, if you're from the Midlands surely it should be "we" not "they"?

None of it is anecdotal nor is it BS, it happened and keeps happening time and again. If I talked completely Midlands dialect it would appear as a foreign language to some, so give me some credit for making sure everyone is able to understand me. You should know that if you travel 25 miles from a set point the lingo changes, which is probably the case in Switzerland also mate, bud, pal.

[Ato]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	That's nowt! My OH has two pet names for me that he frequently uses in public and our friends now use to wind me up. Our neighbour even used one of them the other day because it makes him laugh.

Come on now, spill the beans, while you still can. I've no idea where baked beans come from other than a tin.

	Quote:	Raffles
	None of it is anecdotal nor is it BS, it happened and keeps happening time and again. If I talked completely Midlands dialect it would appear as a foreign language to some, so give me some credit for making sure everyone is able to understand me. You should know that if you travel 25 miles from a set point the lingo changes, which is probably the case in Switzerland also mate, bud, pal.

Of course it's anecdotal. You gave us an anecdote.

Well aware of dialect changes, ta.

I am doubting your assertion that everyone in the Midlands is xenophobic. Not your abillity to use a Midlands dialect.

Mate = fairly nationally understood
Bud/pal = tend to be Scottish
Flower/Petal = North East
Duck = East midlands
Lady = bit cringey everywhere unless you're also a Knight of the Round Table.

[Raffles]

Thas right there me duck.

[Fish Paste]

	Quote:	Raffles
	None of it is anecdotal nor is it BS, it happened and keeps happening time and again.

Maybe the problem is you then?

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	An MPs job is represent all of their constituents on the political stage, regardless of whether they voted for them or not. In the UK, most MPs have a surgery on Fridays when they return from Westminster, where their constituents can book an appointment to speak to them one to one. I once had occasion to seek the assistance of the last Wigan MP (Labour) even though I wasn't a Labour voter. He heard my problem, wrote a letter and the problem was resolved. For bigger stuff, they raise issues with colleagues and/or in the HoC to seek out a political solution. That's their job. My current Windsor MP (Conservative) has the nickname 'Absent Adam' because he very rarely holds surgeries or meets with his constituents. He's resolutely follows the PMs line despite being the MP for a remain area, which has caused a lot of antagonism towards him. He'll be very lucky to keep his seat because Windsor is moderate Conservative / LibDem with virtually no Labour presence, and a high percentage of international residents who work in the city or at Heathrow. The thing with the EU referendum is that it's a tool of direct democracy and that result is butting against the traditional role of an MP in a representative democracy. Imagine you're an MP who's active in their constituency, and almost every surgery you hear these concerns and fears: My vote isn't being respected. My spouse hasn't been given Settled Status. My business will struggle massively under a No Deal scenario. My job will go with a No Deal Brexit. My children are being told to "go home" by kids at school even though they were born and raised here. My local pharmacist is experiencing a shortage of the insulin/epilepsy tablets that keep me alive and I'm scared. Our youth centre/wildlife centre/country park/etc is going to lose it's EU grant. How will the government help to make up that shortfall in funding? Who do you prioritise? Any MP with a grain of common sense will see that there's a theme here, and wonder if they could kill several birds with one stone by rejecting a hard, no deal brexit. It might mean that they get thrown out of their party. It might mean that they lose their seat at the next election, but their overriding duty is to their constituents. When the Conservative party has taken a sharp move the right, and Labour a sharp move to the left, it's very possible to be a traditional MP for either party and feel that, whilst your core values haven't changed, the current values of the cabinet do not share your views. It's like when your favourite band release that tricky third album and it turns out to be a pile of dog poop. You still love the first two albums, but can't embrace the third 'just because...' and why should you?!

I think it’s very sad that in this day and age there are still people like you who still feel they need to have MPs to represent them. If Brexit has shown us anything is that if the UK political system isn’t broken (I believe it is), then it certainly isn’t equipped to deal with a referendum of this type where MPs are able to block the result. We live in an age of information (and misinformation), there is the internet, everyone is more informed now than they have ever been. I’m sure you believe very strongly in the system, but people need to wake up and realise it’s no good any more.

If you want proof of this, then look no further then at all the MPs who have switched party in recently weeks. Heidi Allen is on her fifth party since February. None of them have called by-elections to seek a mandate. Furthermore, look at how many of them are looking to stand in different seats at the next election because they know they won’t get reelected in their current seat. They don’t care for their constituents, they just care about remaining in power. They’re more desperate to remain an MP than they are representing and serving a place they care about. If that doesn’t prove the farce that is the UK’s representative democracy, I don’t know what does.

[Raffles]

	Quote:	Fish Paste
	Maybe the problem is you then?

How, it's not happening to me. It's happening to people who do not have a English accent.

[Fish Paste]

	Quote:	Raffles
	How, it's not happening to me. It's happening to people who do not have a English accent.

I have never, ever heard of an American in the UK being 'victimised' just on account of their accent.


Similarly, whilst I can accept that there are racist elements that would make a comment to people with a foreign accent, it is not 'many' and certainly not a frequent occurance.


The East and West midalnds are home to literally millions of immigrants, you expect people to believe they are under daily threat?


In my frequent travels to the NW, Liverpool and the working towns in Lancs, I've never seen nor heard anything that you describe, and to the locals I'm a foreigner.


So yes, I'm also calling BS.

[curley]

	Quote:
	They are not resigning, they are not threatening to leave, they have simply announced they will not stand in the next election as Tory party candidates if the party has no deal written into its manifesto. They are stating on a matter of principal that they cannot stand as a representative of a party that disagrees with them on such a fundamental matter. They are doing it at the next election so you will have the choice of whether to vote for a blinkered Brexit fanatic or someone more reasonable. The ERG have really done a wonderful job of putting the blame for the current mess on remainers when in reality it is their own inflexibility and unwillingness to compromise or indeed support their own party that really lead to May's deal being rejected.

What makes me wonder: They discuss/argue changes of party manifestos now? Are the elections before October 31st?
If not - anything to avoid making the decisions on the table? Priorities, priorities ....

It's possible no-deal-Brexit has taken place before the next elections. Then they will write no deal into their manifesto retroactively?
Yeah, discussing changes of manifestos is definitely time well spent.

[keyboardandmouse]

	Quote:	Fish Paste
	I have never, ever heard of an American in the UK being 'victimised' just on account of their accent. Similarly, whilst I can accept that there are racist elements that would make a comment to people with a foreign accent, it is not 'many' and certainly not a frequent occurance. The East and West midalnds are home to literally millions of immigrants, you expect people to believe they are under daily threat? In my frequent travels to the NW, Liverpool and the working towns in Lancs, I've never seen nor heard anything that you describe, and to the locals I'm a foreigner. So yes, I'm also calling BS.

Yes I second this. It winds me up when people label an entire nation as a bunch of racists in effect when the vast, vast majority are absolutely nothing of the sort.

[Sky]

No Fishpaste it’s not BS.
Just last year when in the Midlands I was in a setting where there were 4 or 5 local ladies (prefer to use «ladies» out of politeness).
I was commenting on how lovely the landscapes were in parts of Derbyshire and South Yorkshire and how nice it was that most people had a house with a garden.
My comment was sincere and appreciative.
One lady sized me up and said:
«You’re a foreigner, you can mow my lawn»

I didn’t know what to say 😶
So I said nothing

[Ato]

	Quote:	keyboardandmouse
	Yes I second this. It winds me up when people label an entire nation as a bunch of racists in effect when the vast, vast majority are absolutely nothing of the sort.

You think the vast, vast majority are not something, that racist!
I've always found the majority of generalisations are terrible...

I've friends who are obviously foreign in the UK, they've not had an increase in racist comments even though 2 of them work in coffee shops/bakers facing customers on a daily basis. They're in the East midlands so who knows. Then again this is anecdotal.