The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	It's pretty clear the system without photo ID isn't broken, and this isn't an attempt to fix anything, except election results.

How do you know that it is not broken if you have not been checked? Out in the country it pretty easy for impersonating officers to challenge someone... but in the cities there is very little change of being caught. Just because very few are caught does not mean it is not happening.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	How do you know that it is not broken if you have not been checked? Out in the country it pretty easy for impersonating officers to challenge someone... but in the cities there is very little change of being caught. Just because very few are caught does not mean it is not happening.

Or, get this, it just isn't a big problem, because risking huge jail time for electoral fraud, for the gain of one vote for your favoured party isn't worth it to even the most hardline of members.

Whether I am checked or not is relevant how? Sounds a bit anecdotal to me. I live in Switzerland, so any vote I did would presumably not be checked on ID in person, as it would be postal. Genius.

You are unwittingly (or wittingly) legitimizing the whole Trump guff about millions of unregistered voters with your unsubstantiated, data free, emission above.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	amogles
	AFAIK, the UK is the only EU country that doesn't have an ID requirement. Remainers keep saying the UK should become more like the rest of the EU. Except when it doesn't suit them.

Neither does Ireland and we had the same rejection of a national identity card. Every time there is an election you news interviews with young people coming home to vote, even though most of them don’t have the right to vote - you loose it after 12 months living abroad.

A couple of bright sparks in the civil service came up with workarounds for the ID card, so we now have a “passport card” instead of ID card for travel in Europe and a social welfare card that clearly states on it that it is not an ID card

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	You are unwittingly (or wittingly) legitimizing the whole Trump guff about millions of unregistered voters with your unsubstantiated, data free, emission above.

I’m speaking from actually experience in Ireland of operating the exact same impersonation checks as the UK. I’ve be an impersonating officer in a village polling station where I even had to challenge the presiding officer of fraud! I’ve been an impersonating officer at a Dublin polling station where no one had a clue who the people were and we just randomly challenged voters on the off chance that we might catch someone.

And in my experience most people who commit voter fraud don’t even realize that it is a criminal offense and they could go to prison because it happens so rarely.

We have no idea what the level is because we have no way of checking and arguing that it can’t be high because we did not catch many is a very poor argument.

[marton]

	Quote:
	Or, get this, it just isn't a big problem, because risking huge jail time for electoral fraud, for the gain of one vote for your favoured party isn't worth it to even the most hardline of members. Whether I am checked or not is relevant how? Sounds a bit anecdotal to me. I live in Switzerland, so any vote I did would presumably not be checked on ID in person, as it would be postal. Genius. You are unwittingly (or wittingly) legitimizing the whole Trump guff about millions of unregistered voters with your unsubstantiated, data free, emission above.

You do not know the Irish expression "vote early, vote often"?

	Quote:	Jim2007
	I’m speaking from actually experience in Ireland of operating the exact same impersonation checks as the UK. I’ve be an impersonating officer in a village polling station where I even had to challenge the presiding officer of fraud! I’ve been an impersonating officer at a Dublin polling station where no one had a clue who the people were and we just randomly challenged voters on the off chance that we might catch someone. And in my experience most people who commit voter fraud don’t even realize that it is a criminal offense and they could go to prison because it happens so rarely. We have no idea what the level is because we have no way of checking and arguing that it can’t be high because we did not catch many is a very poor argument.

If you use the same procedure in Ireland as the UK, then you know that when you register at the polling location, your name and address are marked off the electoral register, then you are granted a ballot paper. If there was anything like widespread fraud, it would be easily seen as people's name and addresses would be checked off before they arrived and they would be denied a vote.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	If you use the same procedure in Ireland as the UK, then you know that when you register at the polling location, your name and address are marked off the electoral register, then you are granted a ballot paper. If there was anything like widespread fraud, it would be easily seen as people's name and addresses would be checked off before they arrived and they would be denied a vote.

In the US, apparently, a lot of the fraud involved people who had (recently) deceased, but for some reason not struck off the register, as well as people who for reasons of illness or inacapacity were unable to vote. All this suggests that the fraudsters invested some research effort in preparing their fraud.

[Ato]

	Quote:
	If you use the same procedure in Ireland as the UK, then you know that when you register at the polling location, your name and address are marked off the electoral register, then you are granted a ballot paper. If there was anything like widespread fraud, it would be easily seen as people's name and addresses would be checked off before they arrived and they would be denied a vote.

Yes, but the recently deceased, those hospitalised, or on holidays might have their votes counted without them ever filling the ballot themselves.

	Quote:	Ato
	Yes, but the recently deceased, those hospitalised, or on holidays might have their votes counted without them ever filling the ballot themselves.

"Might" != widespread or significant. Are you really going to risk voting for people on holiday with the knowledge they might have done a postal vote or nominated a proxy (same for hospitalized people)?

	Quote:
	"Might" != widespread or significant.

The saying for Northern Ireland elections was always "vote early, vote often".

[Ato]

	Quote:
	"Might" != widespread or significant. Are you really going to risk voting for people on holiday with the knowledge they might have done a postal vote or nominated a proxy (same for hospitalized people)?

Ireland has very limited postal votes, mostly for state employees abroad, although I think people with disabilities and long term illnesses could get exemptions. I can't remember proxies being a thing.

I'm not saying its widespread or significant, I'm saying it can happen and is currently unquantified.

	Quote:	Ato
	Ireland has very limited postal votes, mostly for state employees abroad, although I think people with disabilities and long term illnesses could get exemptions. I can't remember proxies being a thing. I'm not saying its widespread or significant, I'm saying it can happen and is currently unquantified.

We aren't talking about Ireland.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	We aren't talking about Ireland.

You should have responded that to the forum member that mentions Ireland in every single post

[Ato]

	Quote:
	We aren't talking about Ireland.

	Quote:
	If you use the same procedure in Ireland as the UK, then you know that when you register at the polling location, your name and address are marked off the electoral register, then you are granted a ballot paper. If there was anything like widespread fraud, it would be easily seen as people's name and addresses would be checked off before they arrived and they would be denied a vote.

No of course, Ireland was never mentioned.

[bowlie]

	Quote:
	We aren't talking about Ireland.

What the [expletive deleted] are we talking about?

In the run up to a possible agreement, possibly just hours away, you guys are debating voting fraud and postal ballots.

Mine Gott.

	Quote:	Ato
	No of course, Ireland was never mentioned.

Jim brought Ireland into a discussion about British Voter ID. Ireland was mentioned but clearly wasn't the subject of the discussion.

	Quote:	bowlie
	What the [expletive deleted] are we talking about? In the run up to a possible agreement, possibly just hours away, you guys are debating voting fraud and postal ballots. Mine Gott.

It's almost like it is possible to discuss multiple things in the same thread.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Then we crash out, on 31st which was his plan all along Perhaps he is a genius after all.

Haha! Yep. Walks into the Panama sunset with his millions alongside his rich mates while the country burns behind him.

Johnson's no fool. He's cleaning up everyday this debacle continues.

[3Wishes]

	Quote:	amogles
	In the US, apparently, a lot of the fraud involved people who had (recently) deceased, but for some reason not struck off the register, as well as people who for reasons of illness or inacapacity were unable to vote. All this suggests that the fraudsters invested some research effort in preparing their fraud.

Not really. The most "common" cases, which aren't common at all are:

• Ballot arrived while voter was still living. Person voted the ballot and sent it in, but died before Election Day
• Person's ballot arrived around the time they died, and a family member filled it out thinking it would be okay

Despite what people think, government agencies aren't that stellar at communicating with each other and it takes time for the rolls to be updated with deceased voters, felons, and people who simply moved or changed their name.

I don't know UK law but most U.S. states require a voter to request an absentee (postal) ballot, and that request involves a signature. When the ballot is returned, generally the individual signs the outer envelope as well. Signatures on absentee requests and ballots are compared to the signatures on file in the electoral office.

It's pretty hard to coordinate some mass voting on behalf of deceased people.

[jacek]

There is a silver lining to this whole campaign ...

https://www.fin24.com/Economy/World/...icial-20191016

[marton]

Current status seems to be that Boris has a changed deal that the EU will likely accept but so far he does not have even tentative agreement from the UK.

Did I ever write "you could not make this stuff up"?