The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[autopoiesis]

What amazes me is that anyone believed that the alliance between well-heeled Tories like JRM and working/middle class people was ever genuine.


I heard the following a year ago, last time I was in The Smoke: "I voted out, but if I knew then what I know now I'd have never voted for it. And that Boris Johnson's a c#!t!"


London cabbie, from Basildon of all places; verbatim quote.


Not having a confirmatory referendum is akin to telling him (and 17.4m other leave voters) that they've learned nothing in 3.5 years. It's as insulting to them as it is to anyone else.

[fatmanfilms]

Have the Remoaner MPs scored a massive own goal? Why should the EU grant an extension as an agreed deal by the other EU states is on the table? This afternoon's vote could easily lead to a no deal departure. Bumbling Boris does not have to renegotiate a new deal. Yes, have another referendum with the questions being No deal or the agreed deal.

EDIT, just seen this
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...OEG8FPWxmnwcGs

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	We (as a country) would have never been in this situation in the first place if there'd been a decent opposition leader in office. He's appearing more statesmanlike lately, but it's scant compensation for what led us to this place, and let's be having it right, many of us would easily be capable of appearing statesmanlike with such a febrile opponent as the current PM.

So it's Corbyn's fault that
- Cameron didn't get enough from the EU to avoid the referendum, be that his or the EU's "fault"
- Cameron did indeed stay true to his word and had a referendum held
- Cameron did, without the authority to do so, claim that the outcome of the referendum would be respected
- the people voted for Brexit
- May didn't get a deal through pariliament
- BoJo didn't get a deal through parliament either
- BoJo ... nevermind

In short, if the UK didn't have Corbyn they'd have to invent him, didn't they.

Everbody needs a patsy, and if you don't now it'll definitely be handy later.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Have the Remoaner MPs scored a massive own goal? Why should the EU grant an extension as an agreed deal by the other EU states is on the table? This afternoon's vote could easily lead to a no deal departure. Bumbling Boris does not have to renegotiate a new deal. Yes, have another referendum with the questions being No deal or the agreed deal. EDIT, just seen this https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...OEG8FPWxmnwcGs

Massive case of bite off the nose to spite the face..

I avoided watching this stuff for years but actually watched the debate for a couple of hours today. Total mess.

As one guy said in an interview afterwards.. Sure have another referendum .. it might go from 52-48 to 48-52 .. Then what, still a nation divided.

[bowlie]

	Quote:
	the people voted for Brexit

Actually it was just some of the electorate (not the people), and less than half of them.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Quote: Jim2007 Well the rebate is already gone as of the next budget period regardless of whether the U.K. revokes A50 or not. Got a link for that? The proposed/budgeted €12bln from the UK for 2020 is roughly the same as this year.

Still waiting.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	"Narrow preconceptions"? Oh right, have it your way: the Tory party is packed full of doughty yeomen of the soil and mill who have made their way to the top by the sweat of their brow and sheer determination. Happy now?

I think in many cases people are successful by being lucky but more importantly being persistent, as your chance of luck increases the more times you try. No doubt will say that it's the upbringing that gives the confidence to be persistent!
Terribly intelligent well educated people have a sense of entitlement & that is often the reason they fail to achieve very much in life.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I think in many cases people are successful by being lucky but more importantly being persistent, as your chance of luck increases the more times you try. No doubt will say that it's the upbringing that gives the confidence to be persistent! Terribly intelligent well educated people have a sense of entitlement & that is often the reason they fail to achieve very much in life.

I suspect that being born into a family with lots of connections and an existing base of wealth, along with having the kind of education which further improves one's chances of making good connections has as much to do with "making it" as any kind of persistence.

It's interesting how many of my posh friends were able to take creative risks because they had a network to fall back on. That isn't available to most people, which is why lower middle and working class kids are always encouraged to go for modest, low-paying jobs with a decent chance of job security, rather than swanning off and opening diving schools in the Seychelles or selling scented candles in Camden.

In other words: the Tory narrative of "hard work and persistence" is bullshit unless one has the background to pull it off.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	I suspect that being born into a family with lots of connections and an existing base of wealth, along with having the kind of education which further improves one's chances of making good connections has as much to do with "making it" as any kind of persistence. It's interesting how many of my posh friends were able to take creative risks because they had a network to fall back on. That isn't available to most people, which is why lower middle and working class kids are always encouraged to go for modest, low-paying jobs with a decent chance of job security, rather than swanning off and opening diving schools in the Seychelles or selling scented candles in Camden. In other words: the Tory narrative of "hard work and persistence" is bullshit unless one has the background to pull it off.

Have you ever tried to set up any sort of business, it's much harder than a job as you will be likely working 15 hours a day 7 days a week.

	Quote:
	I suspect that being born into a family with lots of connections and an existing base of wealth, along with having the kind of education which further improves one's chances of making good connections has as much to do with "making it" as any kind of persistence. It's interesting how many of my posh friends were able to take creative risks because they had a network to fall back on. That isn't available to most people, which is why lower middle and working class kids are always encouraged to go for modest, low-paying jobs with a decent chance of job security, rather than swanning off and opening diving schools in the Seychelles or selling scented candles in Camden. In other words: the Tory narrative of "hard work and persistence" is bullshit unless one has the background to pull it off.

This. Art History at St Andrews must be full of students who don't need to work but fancy swanning about in auction houses. Don't get me started on the system of unpaid internships in expensive cities. You need one hell of a support system to be able to do that.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I think in many cases people are successful by being lucky but more importantly being persistent, as your chance of luck increases the more times you try. No doubt will say that it's the upbringing that gives the confidence to be persistent! Terribly intelligent well educated people have a sense of entitlement & that is often the reason they fail to achieve very much in life.

Interesting take on education you have there seeing as Toby Young’s dad, the Baron Michael Young seemed to think education important enough to use his privileged background and influence to get his dumbo offspring into Trinity College. How lucky he must have felt.

Not much beats having toff rellies to steer your luck for you, right?

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Have you ever tried to set up any sort of business, it's much harder than a job as you will be likely working 15 hours a day 7 days a week.

More to the point, it's a risk which most people without that big fat cushion underneath them cannot afford to take.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Interesting take on education you have there seeing as Toby Young’s dad, the Baron Michael Young seemed to think education important enough to use his privileged background and influence to get his dumbo offspring into Trinity College. How lucky he must have felt. Not much beats having toff rellies to steer your luck for you, right?

Did the dumbo offspring get a degree from Trinity?

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Did the dumbo offspring get a degree from Trinity?

I’d be surprised if he didn’t. I’m sure the Baron ensured those wheels were also sufficiently greased.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	More to the point, it's a risk which most people without that big fat cushion underneath them cannot afford to take.

I think you have a point, however it's risk aversion rather than anything else. Many people think the stock market is too risky. Personally stock market returns over the last 10 years exceed earnings from over 36 years work.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I think you have a point, however it's risk aversion rather than anything else. Many people think the stock market is too risky. Personally stock market returns over the last 10 years exceed earnings from over 36 years work.

Yeah, people without a safety net tend to be averse to falling onto concrete. Strange, that, isn't it?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	I’d be surprised if he didn’t. I’m sure the Baron ensured those wheels were also sufficiently greased.

I don't believe he could have any influence of their degree form Trinity.
His offspring were not as dumb as you think, intrigued to know the A level results.

I do know a Canadian who got accepted by Girton due to a connection, however he did not complete the first year as he could not cut it.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Yeah, people without a safety net tend to be averse to falling onto concrete. Strange, that, isn't it?

Plenty of people who have been bankrupt go on to have very successful business's. Conviction that you will succeed in the end is the way to success.

Wealth rarely lasts for 3 generations, the second generation are lazy good for nothings who waste all of the money.

Generally self made wealthy people have always lived below their means, this gave them the ability to be wealthy.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Plenty of people who have been bankrupt go on to have very successful business's. Conviction that you will succeed in the end is the way to success.

Also, knowing lots of people with influence, having a known name, being able to rely on Roger from the rowing club. It's easy to have conviction of future success when one is swimming in social capital.

	Quote:
	Generally self made wealthy people have always lived below their means, this gave them the ability to be wealthy.

Again, it's easy to slum it for a bit if you know you won't always have to. I have known plenty of people who have taken the risk and lived in self-imposed poverty for a while because they knew they had a way out of it. It isn't so easy when there's no clear route out of it.