The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[IronAngle]

DB for all your rambling about posh entitled tories you seem to forget that it could easily apply to Labor as well. Politicians in general in our day and age are part of a social elite and the masses no longer relate to them.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	It's an astonishing state of affairs when the majority of people have zero trust in the PM, he cannot be taken at his word, and we feel compelled to second guess his next move because there is no clarity, honesty or honour about the man.

You could replace the word PM by opposition and it would still remain true. There are several culprits in this fiasco.

	Quote:	IronAngle
	DB for all your rambling about posh entitled tories you seem to forget that it could easily apply to Labor as well.

So? Is it the Labour party who have buggered up Brexit?

Stay focused, boy.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Troublawesome
	What kind of spineless juvenile moron sends an unsigned letter when it's his duty and then a signed one with his useless personal opinion? What kind of games are these? Who does he think he is...does he have no respect for the office he holds? The UK is now officially a failed state where PMs break the law and play fast and loose with any law that doesn't suit them, as someone would expect on a banana republic. Shambles....

Someone who clearly proves that has made little use of his distinguished studies that very few have access to. It confirms my opinion that education means nothing when not backed up by wisdom, modesty and morals.

[IronAngle]

	Quote:
	So? Is it the Labour party who have buggered up Brexit? Stay focused, boy.

Yes they certainly have. They have not once held a clear position and not once shown any regard for fulfilling the outcome of the referendum. What they have done is to try and block any attempt to achieve Brexit (deal or no deal)

	Quote:	IronAngle
	Yes they certainly have. They have not once held a clear position and not once shown any regard for fulfilling the outcome of the referendum. What they have done is to try and block any attempt to achieve Brexit (deal or no deal)

The ball has been in the Tories' court since the moment Cameron offered the electorate something he had no intention of delivering. It was a Tory PM who threw away her majority. It was a Tory PM who dragged us into bed with a bunch of knuckle-draggers. It is the Tories who elected a proven liar and scoundrel to lead the country.

This is a Tory mess from beginning to end.

Sure, Labour are useless, but they are nowhere near as wilfully moronic and incompetent as the Hoorays currently running the shitshow.

[John William]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	A lengthy extension would also be my preferred option as it would take the heat out of the situation. My belief remains that most of this should have been done before A50 was triggered to allow time for properly testing different models and routes to a steady exit in full consultation with all the UK nations and dependents, industry, etc...

Which is still a lot of bother just to show that the UK is still better off in the EU club than outside
it and the whole Brexit debacle and restoration of peace in the Brexit debate can be done by
consigning Brexit to the dustbin of history by revoking Article 50.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	IronAngle
	Yes they certainly have. They have not once held a clear position and not once shown any regard for fulfilling the outcome of the referendum. What they have done is to try and block any attempt to achieve Brexit (deal or no deal)

This to me just sums up the stupidity of this entire situation, you vote in advisory referendum with no legal means of enforcing it, elect a parliament in which no party has a mandate to carry out the result of the referendum and then blame parliamentarians who are against it and are in any case are only accountable to their local constituency for not delivering it.

Do you even understand that to restrict an MPs right to act would be a fundamental breach of the concept of a representative parliamentary democracy?

It seems to me that before taking back control you need to have a conversation about how that control is going to be exercised!

[IronAngle]

Jim and DB the point is that despite neither party being particularly in favor of the popular choice, one of them has tried at 5 attempts to enforce it while the other has only sought to block, disrupt, delay and cancel the whole process.

Be assured that they will pay for their short-term vision at the next elections.

	Quote:	IronAngle
	Jim and DB the point is that despite neither party being particularly in favor of the popular choice, one of them has tried at 5 attempts to enforce it while the other has only sought to block, disrupt, delay and cancel the whole process. Be assured that they will pay for their short-term vision at the next elections.

One thing that stands out is that those who you describe as blocking and disrupting have consistently done so armed with back up info from real and qualified sources (business leaders, banks, unions, economists). Bojo’s team has so far only come up with populist nonsense and vague soundbites, hoping to somehow cash in on the ‘will of the people’ smoke and mirrors.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	IronAngle
	You could replace the word PM by opposition and it would still remain true. There are several culprits in this fiasco.

I completely disagree because, in this case, the opposition consists of a number of political parties with a wide range of beliefs and motivations.

In my opinion, May was completely incorrect in her handling of the initial negotiations because she actively excluded imput from opposition parties and even members of her own cabinet, which resulted in the weird paradox where MPs were learning of May's proposals from members of foreign governments and media. Faith was lost because of May's secrecy with her own Parliament vs the transparency of the people on the other end of the deal. This led to an exceptionally late in the day consultative/indicative voting process, which only happened because opposition parties took control of the HoC order paper, and even later consultative negotiations with the main opposition party.

Johnson has taken things several levels further by repeatedly saying one thing whilst actively doing another. Whilst the opposition parties offer absolute clarity over their motives for certain actions, such as refusing to have a GE at this point in time, the PM actively spins this to make them appear cowardly and dishonest. This is the exact same rhetoric tactic used by groups such as the alt-right where the strategy is to repeatedly accuse your opposition of that which you are guilty of in the hope that their strenuous denials will obfuscate your next move. Accusations have a louder voice than denials and apologies. And don't even get me started on "Classic Dom!"

[fatmanfilms]

Interestingly nobody has remarked how different Hilary Benn's view on the E.U. is from his late father Labour MP Tony Benn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQY2CHx4d3U

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Interestingly nobody has remarked how different Hilary Benn's view on the E.U. is from his late father Labour MP Tony Benn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQY2CHx4d3U

He’s been dead for 5 years.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	He’s been dead for 5 years.

Still a good speech!

[curley]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Interestingly nobody has remarked how different Hilary Benn's view on the E.U. is from his late father Labour MP Tony Benn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQY2CHx4d3U

There are universes between my view and the one of my parents ..... so why is this important?

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Interestingly nobody has remarked how different Hilary Benn's view on the E.U. is from his late father Labour MP Tony Benn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQY2CHx4d3U

I have a lot of respect for people who form their own views of the world. It's a lot better than just blindly following family tradition. What kind of thicko wants to sound like a parrot of his own Dad?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	I have a lot of respect for people who form their own views of the world. It's a lot better than just blindly following family tradition. What kind of thicko wants to sound like a parrot of his own Dad?

Indeed, quite surprised you made that point after your how important families are in success.

The hero of the day Oliver Letwin recommended to Mrs Thatcher that Scotland should be used as a trial for the Poll Tax, Interesting to see how he goes down in history.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Indeed, quite surprised you made that point after your how important families are in success. The hero of the day Oliver Letwin recommended to Mrs Thatcher that Scotland should be used as a trial for the Poll Tax, Interesting to see how he goes down in history.

And Churchill was a total twat until he wasn't. So what?

	Quote:
	And Churchill was a total twat until he wasn't. So what?

He still is to the vast majority of the world

... and then, of course, there's good old Oliver Cromwell...

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Interestingly nobody has remarked how different Hilary Benn's view on the E.U. is from his late father Labour MP Tony Benn.

...and apparently your view on education was quite different to that of your father.