The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Troublawesome
	What kind of spineless juvenile moron sends an unsigned letter when it's his duty and then a signed one with his useless personal opinion? What kind of games are these? Who does he think he is...does he have no respect for the office he holds? The UK is now officially a failed state where PMs break the law and play fast and loose with any law that doesn't suit them, as someone would expect on a banana republic. Shambles....

We're back at this question I posted four weeks ago:

	Quote:
	So, what happens if BoJo sabotages the extension so that none [no extension] is effective by October 31? You know, not apply, or apply late and further play for time, or not sign, or not present it to HRM to make the agreement effective (certainly that's necessary). There must be a ton of steps that need to be taken, each presenting an opportunity to break the process.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	...and apparently your view on education was quite different to that of your father.

He failed to have the Imagination to do otherwise & then had a very ordinary career reaching middle management.
I guess having little imagination & only working for 1 company from his first day at work until retirement shows he was somewhat risk averse.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	He failed to have the Imagination to do otherwise & then had a very ordinary career reaching middle management. I guess having little imagination & only working for 1 company from his first day at work until retirement shows he was somewhat risk averse.

Probably not THAT uncommon up to his generation. Many people back then worked for one company until retirement. Nothing to do with imagination or education, or lack of it.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Probably not THAT uncommon up to his generation. Many people back then worked for one company until retirement. Nothing to do with imagination or education, or lack of it.

No desire to do better or take a risk, just following the easy way. Why study law, get called to the Bar, then get a full time job totally unrelated? His education seems like a total waste of time & money.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	No desire to do better or take a risk, just following the easy way. Why study law, get called to the Bar, then get a full time job totally unrelated? His education seems like a total waste of time & money.

Or maybe putting family first with stability and comfort instead of dicking about chasing dreams and pretending to be on the Apprentice.

Having a family tends to concentrate the mind and shifts focus onto more important stuff.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Or maybe putting family first with stability and comfort instead of dicking about chasing dreams and pretending to be on the Apprentice. Having a family tends to concentrate the mind and shifts focus onto more important stuff.

What your saying is that ultimately it's the same for everyone, you either have the risk taking mindset or you don't. When you start a family or if you choose not to start a family is is also a choice.
Your background & education has very little to do with it, blaming something out of your control is an easy cop out, practiced by many.

This is like watching a very, very slow carousel going round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	What your saying is that ultimately it's the same for everyone, you either have the risk taking mindset or you don't. When you start a family or if you choose not to start a family is is also a choice. Your background & education has very little to do with it, blaming something out of your control is an easy cop out, practiced by many.

Kind of kills your theory that it’s all down to luck then, eh?

I didn’t say ‘it’s ultimately the same for everyone’. Everyone’s path is different. Some are born with a silver spoon in their mouth and shamelessly use that to advance themselves whilst pretending it’s all down to hard work or luck or whatever alchemy they come up with. Others work on an education and launch a stellar career based on nous and bloody minded hard work. Others get a lucky break from being in the right place at the right time - reality TV style.

It’s not as black and white as you are trying to portray here.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Kind of kills your theory that it’s all down to luck then, eh? I didn’t say ‘it’s ultimately the same for everyone’. Everyone’s path is different. Some are born with a silver spoon in their mouth and shamelessly use that to advance themselves whilst pretending it’s all down to hard work or luck or whatever alchemy they come up with. Others work on an education and launch a stellar career based on nous and bloody minded hard work. Others get a lucky break from being in the right place at the right time - reality TV style. It’s not as black and white as you are trying to portray here.

People make their own luck, due to persistence & not taking no for an answer.
Everyone is capable of screwing up their own life, I don't think being born with a silver spoon takes that gift away

It every stage of your life you have a choice to push yourself & do better. You can make a black & white choice every day of your life, go home on time or work for longer, or even set up a business from home. It boils down to what motivates you & your aspirations.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	It isn't necessary to have family directly invest in an enterprise in order to benefit from the privilege of being born into the right family. If a minor royal were to set up as a greengrocer with nothing more than a loan from the bank, he would immediately have an advantage over some random bloke from Norfolk, just by virtue of his surname. That's how the class system works, and where this discussion began.

	Quote:
	This is like watching a very, very slow carousel going round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round.

Probably partially because your argument has been quite week, If a Royal with the right surname cant make a business making films, then the silver spoon advantage is not worth very much.

James Dyson is successful because of determination. Sadly his first invention the ball barrow in no longer made, so much better than having a wheel that sinks into mud.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	James Dyson is successful because of determination.

I'm sure his attendance at a top independent boarding school, with all the related social capital benefits, had absolutely nothing to do with it at all, did it?

Seriously, you should listen to yourself. It is so much easier to take the chance of failure when the consequences of failure aren't actually that bad after all.

Prince Edward being a perfect example of this principle.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	I'm sure his attendance at a top independent boarding school, with all the related social capital benefits, had absolutely nothing to do with it at all, did it? Seriously, you should listen to yourself. It is so much easier to take the chance of failure when the consequences of failure aren't actually that bad after all. Prince Edward being a perfect example of this principle.

Everyone born in Western Europe and still in working age is:
- living in an unprecedented period of peace
- probably having the best access to education
- able to can travel around the world easily as first generation ever
- living in the most technologically advanced time ever
- able to make use of freedom of movement within Europe
- having access to the best healthcare and social security systems ever

And still you are complaining about people being more entitled. Of course, there will always be people who are more entitled but chances for everyone are better than ever in history before.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Everyone born in Western Europe and still in working age is: - living in an unprecedented period of peace - probably having the best access to education - able to can travel around the world easily as first generation ever - living in the most technologically advanced time ever - able to make use of freedom of movement within Europe - having access to the best healthcare and social security systems ever And still you are complaining about people being more entitled. Of course, there will always be people who are more entitled but chances for everyone are better than ever in history before.

Sounds a bit ‘Harold Macmillan’

[Blueangel]

One for DB, I suspect you will enjoy this article about catastrophic self-interest and over confidence of the upper classes.

	Quote:
	Johnson’s career of failing upwards since he left Eton illustrates that overconfidence is class determined. In politics and so many other British institutions, you see mediocrities take jobs for which they are not remotely qualified, because wealthy families and a private education have emboldened them. In all spheres, catastrophic men and women are united by an imperviousness to the suffering they cause. Even on the most optimistic assumptions, UK in a Changing Europe found Johnson’s “deal” will take £16bn from already dangerously underfunded public services and all who depend on them. (The pessimists believe £49bn will go.) The PM’s lack of concern for them is typical. Dixon described the siege of Kut in 1915 in what is now Iraq: an operation that led to 30,000 British and Indian army casualties. It distinguished itself, even in the First World War, for having no military purpose whatsoever.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...P=share_btn_tw

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Seriously, you should listen to yourself. It is so much easier to take the chance of failure when the consequences of failure aren't actually that bad after all.

Next you will be telling me next that only the rich & educated are entitled to social benefits & several people will like your post
Generally someone setting up a business will have everything to loose & frequently do, people through good money after bad as the cant accept their idea has failed. Plenty of 'rich' People have gone bankrupt.

I notice that 83% of UK student loans will never be paid back in full. 40% earning less than £25,000 5 years later. Clearly about half the further education budget is totally wasted.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	One for DB, I suspect you will enjoy this article about catastrophic self-interest and over confidence of the upper classes. [/FONT][/COLOR] https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...P=share_btn_tw

I have been led to believe from teachers on this forum that the teachers that teach in private schools are generally second rate. How is it that privately educated children manage to do so well, perhaps motivation has something to do with it, or possibly the teachers in the state schools are not as good as they think they are & put it down some inferiority complex.

[Sky]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I notice that 83% of UK student loans will never be paid back in full. 40% earning less than £25,000 5 years later. Clearly about half the further education budget is totally wasted.

Not sure I understood what you mean here..
If students cannot repay their loans isn’t that an indication that something is askew with the economy?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Sky
	Not sure I understood what you mean here.. If students cannot repay their loans isn’t that an indication that something is askew with the economy?

It shows it was a waste of money investing in their education in the first place, no need to study for 3 years to flip burgers.
Choice of subjects does not help, however quality of student is the issue. I can't say if this is due to poor teaching or just too high a percentage of the population doing further education, perhaps one of the teachers can help answer this.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	It shows it was a waste of money investing in their education in the first place, no need to study for 3 years to flip burgers. Choice of subjects does not help, however quality of student is the issue. I can't say if this is due to poor teaching or just too high a percentage of the population doing further education, perhaps one of the teachers can help answer this.

On the other hand, have a look at any selection of job adverts here or elsewhere. Good luck beating the competition getting even a lowly admin position without some form of higher/further education.

Most places see it as a benchmark that you can learn. Obviously there are exceptions that people never tire of trotting out “Well I left school with nothing more than a first aid certificate and my 25 yards backstroke certificate and I was head of a multinational before I was 15” sorts are few and far between.

I guess there is a fair amount of sour grapes held by the non-higher education set but to make it up the career ladder is much much harder, rightly or wrongly.

Even if you DO know the differences between ‘your’ and ‘you’re’...

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	On the other hand, have a look at any selection of job adverts here or elsewhere. Good luck beating the competition getting even a lowly admin position without some form of higher/further education. Most places see it as a benchmark that you can learn. Obviously there are exceptions that people never tire of trotting out “Well I left school with nothing more than a first aid certificate and my 25 yards backstroke certificate and I was head of a multinational before I was 15” sorts are few and far between. I guess there is a fair amount of sour grapes held by the non-higher education set but to make it up the career ladder is much much harder, rightly or wrongly. Even if you DO know the differences between ‘your’ and ‘you’re’...

People should have wider aspirations & set up their own business. Why would their be any sour grapes, Open University has been around long enough.

I was taught the difference between your & you're, however I did not write anything other than invoices for the next 20 years after leaving School. It's only because of Internet forums that I write at all. Being dyslexic I generally can's see what you wrote & when I re-read I see what it should be, rather than what is written. If I look at my posts 30 minutes later, I can often see obvious mistakes.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	People should have wider aspirations & set up their own business. Why would their be any sour grapes, Open University has been around long enough.

Your reasoning makes no sense. You seem to be suggesting the benchmark for success is if you own your own business. You can’t have millions of one-person companies and no employees, can you?

So the secret of success is to skimp on education and open a business. We’re back to Prince Edward again.

Or get yourself on the next series of The Apprentice, act like the biggest arsehole, enjoy the limelight for a couple of years then slip off to financial ruin and anonymity again...