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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #23621  
Old 20.10.2019, 02:10
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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What kind of spineless juvenile moron sends an unsigned letter when it's his duty and then a signed one with his useless personal opinion? What kind of games are these? Who does he think he is...does he have no respect for the office he holds?
Strictly speaking, at this point in time, he hasn't broken the law and has complied with the terms of the Benn Act. The second letter (and there's a rumoured but unconfirmed third letter) largely refers to Padfield which is a bedrock of UK constitutional law. For proper clarification in thankfully easily understandable language, please refer to this Twitter member...

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen

I particularly like this comment...

"Yes, the side letter could be in Comic Sans or in crayon, and it would not be any more childish"

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/...78305695010816
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  #23622  
Old 20.10.2019, 02:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

This is a brilliant analysis of Johnson's unsigned-letter-plus-one-or-two-"personal"-letters-to-the-EU caper:

"The other letters are sprigs of parsley. There to garnish the fact that he has now asked the EU for an extension, after repeatedly promising his supporters he would not do so."
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  #23623  
Old 20.10.2019, 02:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

It's an astonishing state of affairs when the majority of people have zero trust in the PM, he cannot be taken at his word, and we feel compelled to second guess his next move because there is no clarity, honesty or honour about the man.
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  #23624  
Old 20.10.2019, 02:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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What kind of spineless juvenile moron sends an unsigned letter when it's his duty and then a signed one with his useless personal opinion? What kind of games are these? Who does he think he is...does he have no respect for the office he holds?
Someone who has not learned much from history perhaps, Khrushchev did the same during the Cuban Crisis, leaving JFK to cherry pick the parts of Khrushchev‘s communications that suited him...

If the EU were to do the same and simply set the extension to the end of the next budgetary period, the end of 2025, as some EU officials have suggested it might encourage them to sort themselves out. It would certainly allow the EU to concentrate on other issues as desired by France, while meeting Germany and Ireland’s desire for an extension.

Leaving it to the 27 to choose what suits them best could blow up in his face big time.
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  #23625  
Old 20.10.2019, 02:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

A lengthy extension would also be my preferred option as it would take the heat out of the situation. My belief remains that most of this should have been done before A50 was triggered to allow time for properly testing different models and routes to a steady exit in full consultation with all the UK nations and dependents, industry, etc...
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  #23626  
Old 20.10.2019, 07:10
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

DB for all your rambling about posh entitled tories you seem to forget that it could easily apply to Labor as well. Politicians in general in our day and age are part of a social elite and the masses no longer relate to them.

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It's an astonishing state of affairs when the majority of people have zero trust in the PM, he cannot be taken at his word, and we feel compelled to second guess his next move because there is no clarity, honesty or honour about the man.
You could replace the word PM by opposition and it would still remain true. There are several culprits in this fiasco.
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  #23627  
Old 20.10.2019, 08:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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DB for all your rambling about posh entitled tories you seem to forget that it could easily apply to Labor as well.
So? Is it the Labour party who have buggered up Brexit?

Stay focused, boy.
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  #23628  
Old 20.10.2019, 09:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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What kind of spineless juvenile moron sends an unsigned letter when it's his duty and then a signed one with his useless personal opinion? What kind of games are these? Who does he think he is...does he have no respect for the office he holds?

The UK is now officially a failed state where PMs break the law and play fast and loose with any law that doesn't suit them, as someone would expect on a banana republic.

Shambles....
Someone who clearly proves that has made little use of his distinguished studies that very few have access to. It confirms my opinion that education means nothing when not backed up by wisdom, modesty and morals.
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  #23629  
Old 20.10.2019, 09:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So? Is it the Labour party who have buggered up Brexit?

Stay focused, boy.
Yes they certainly have. They have not once held a clear position and not once shown any regard for fulfilling the outcome of the referendum. What they have done is to try and block any attempt to achieve Brexit (deal or no deal)
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  #23630  
Old 20.10.2019, 09:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Yes they certainly have. They have not once held a clear position and not once shown any regard for fulfilling the outcome of the referendum. What they have done is to try and block any attempt to achieve Brexit (deal or no deal)
The ball has been in the Tories' court since the moment Cameron offered the electorate something he had no intention of delivering. It was a Tory PM who threw away her majority. It was a Tory PM who dragged us into bed with a bunch of knuckle-draggers. It is the Tories who elected a proven liar and scoundrel to lead the country.

This is a Tory mess from beginning to end.

Sure, Labour are useless, but they are nowhere near as wilfully moronic and incompetent as the Hoorays currently running the shitshow.
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  #23631  
Old 20.10.2019, 10:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A lengthy extension would also be my preferred option as it would take the heat out of the situation. My belief remains that most of this should have been done before A50 was triggered to allow time for properly testing different models and routes to a steady exit in full consultation with all the UK nations and dependents, industry, etc...
Which is still a lot of bother just to show that the UK is still better off in the EU club than outside
it and the whole Brexit debacle and restoration of peace in the Brexit debate can be done by
consigning Brexit to the dustbin of history by revoking Article 50.

Last edited by John William; 20.10.2019 at 11:41.
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  #23632  
Old 20.10.2019, 12:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Yes they certainly have. They have not once held a clear position and not once shown any regard for fulfilling the outcome of the referendum. What they have done is to try and block any attempt to achieve Brexit (deal or no deal)
This to me just sums up the stupidity of this entire situation, you vote in advisory referendum with no legal means of enforcing it, elect a parliament in which no party has a mandate to carry out the result of the referendum and then blame parliamentarians who are against it and are in any case are only accountable to their local constituency for not delivering it.

Do you even understand that to restrict an MPs right to act would be a fundamental breach of the concept of a representative parliamentary democracy?

It seems to me that before taking back control you need to have a conversation about how that control is going to be exercised!
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  #23633  
Old 20.10.2019, 12:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Jim and DB the point is that despite neither party being particularly in favor of the popular choice, one of them has tried at 5 attempts to enforce it while the other has only sought to block, disrupt, delay and cancel the whole process.

Be assured that they will pay for their short-term vision at the next elections.
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Old 20.10.2019, 12:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Jim and DB the point is that despite neither party being particularly in favor of the popular choice, one of them has tried at 5 attempts to enforce it while the other has only sought to block, disrupt, delay and cancel the whole process.

Be assured that they will pay for their short-term vision at the next elections.
One thing that stands out is that those who you describe as blocking and disrupting have consistently done so armed with back up info from real and qualified sources (business leaders, banks, unions, economists). Bojo’s team has so far only come up with populist nonsense and vague soundbites, hoping to somehow cash in on the ‘will of the people’ smoke and mirrors.
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  #23635  
Old 20.10.2019, 12:37
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You could replace the word PM by opposition and it would still remain true. There are several culprits in this fiasco.
I completely disagree because, in this case, the opposition consists of a number of political parties with a wide range of beliefs and motivations.

In my opinion, May was completely incorrect in her handling of the initial negotiations because she actively excluded imput from opposition parties and even members of her own cabinet, which resulted in the weird paradox where MPs were learning of May's proposals from members of foreign governments and media. Faith was lost because of May's secrecy with her own Parliament vs the transparency of the people on the other end of the deal. This led to an exceptionally late in the day consultative/indicative voting process, which only happened because opposition parties took control of the HoC order paper, and even later consultative negotiations with the main opposition party.

Johnson has taken things several levels further by repeatedly saying one thing whilst actively doing another. Whilst the opposition parties offer absolute clarity over their motives for certain actions, such as refusing to have a GE at this point in time, the PM actively spins this to make them appear cowardly and dishonest. This is the exact same rhetoric tactic used by groups such as the alt-right where the strategy is to repeatedly accuse your opposition of that which you are guilty of in the hope that their strenuous denials will obfuscate your next move. Accusations have a louder voice than denials and apologies. And don't even get me started on "Classic Dom!"
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Old 20.10.2019, 12:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Interestingly nobody has remarked how different Hilary Benn's view on the E.U. is from his late father Labour MP Tony Benn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQY2CHx4d3U
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  #23637  
Old 20.10.2019, 12:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Interestingly nobody has remarked how different Hilary Benn's view on the E.U. is from his late father Labour MP Tony Benn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQY2CHx4d3U
He’s been dead for 5 years.
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  #23638  
Old 20.10.2019, 12:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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He’s been dead for 5 years.
Still a good speech!
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  #23639  
Old 20.10.2019, 13:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Interestingly nobody has remarked how different Hilary Benn's view on the E.U. is from his late father Labour MP Tony Benn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQY2CHx4d3U
There are universes between my view and the one of my parents ..... so why is this important?
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  #23640  
Old 20.10.2019, 13:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Interestingly nobody has remarked how different Hilary Benn's view on the E.U. is from his late father Labour MP Tony Benn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQY2CHx4d3U
I have a lot of respect for people who form their own views of the world. It's a lot better than just blindly following family tradition. What kind of thicko wants to sound like a parrot of his own Dad?
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