The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Sky]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I notice that 83% of UK student loans will never be paid back in full. 40% earning less than £25,000 5 years later. Clearly about half the further education budget is totally wasted.

Not sure I understood what you mean here..
If students cannot repay their loans isn’t that an indication that something is askew with the economy?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Sky
	Not sure I understood what you mean here.. If students cannot repay their loans isn’t that an indication that something is askew with the economy?

It shows it was a waste of money investing in their education in the first place, no need to study for 3 years to flip burgers.
Choice of subjects does not help, however quality of student is the issue. I can't say if this is due to poor teaching or just too high a percentage of the population doing further education, perhaps one of the teachers can help answer this.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	It shows it was a waste of money investing in their education in the first place, no need to study for 3 years to flip burgers. Choice of subjects does not help, however quality of student is the issue. I can't say if this is due to poor teaching or just too high a percentage of the population doing further education, perhaps one of the teachers can help answer this.

On the other hand, have a look at any selection of job adverts here or elsewhere. Good luck beating the competition getting even a lowly admin position without some form of higher/further education.

Most places see it as a benchmark that you can learn. Obviously there are exceptions that people never tire of trotting out “Well I left school with nothing more than a first aid certificate and my 25 yards backstroke certificate and I was head of a multinational before I was 15” sorts are few and far between.

I guess there is a fair amount of sour grapes held by the non-higher education set but to make it up the career ladder is much much harder, rightly or wrongly.

Even if you DO know the differences between ‘your’ and ‘you’re’...

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	On the other hand, have a look at any selection of job adverts here or elsewhere. Good luck beating the competition getting even a lowly admin position without some form of higher/further education. Most places see it as a benchmark that you can learn. Obviously there are exceptions that people never tire of trotting out “Well I left school with nothing more than a first aid certificate and my 25 yards backstroke certificate and I was head of a multinational before I was 15” sorts are few and far between. I guess there is a fair amount of sour grapes held by the non-higher education set but to make it up the career ladder is much much harder, rightly or wrongly. Even if you DO know the differences between ‘your’ and ‘you’re’...

People should have wider aspirations & set up their own business. Why would their be any sour grapes, Open University has been around long enough.

I was taught the difference between your & you're, however I did not write anything other than invoices for the next 20 years after leaving School. It's only because of Internet forums that I write at all. Being dyslexic I generally can's see what you wrote & when I re-read I see what it should be, rather than what is written. If I look at my posts 30 minutes later, I can often see obvious mistakes.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	People should have wider aspirations & set up their own business. Why would their be any sour grapes, Open University has been around long enough.

Your reasoning makes no sense. You seem to be suggesting the benchmark for success is if you own your own business. You can’t have millions of one-person companies and no employees, can you?

So the secret of success is to skimp on education and open a business. We’re back to Prince Edward again.

Or get yourself on the next series of The Apprentice, act like the biggest arsehole, enjoy the limelight for a couple of years then slip off to financial ruin and anonymity again...

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Your reasoning makes no sense. You seem to be suggesting the benchmark for success is if you own your own business. You can’t have millions of one-person companies and no employees, can you? So the secret of success is to skimp on education and open a business. We’re back to Prince Edward again. Or get yourself on the next series of The Apprentice, act like the biggest arsehole, enjoy the limelight for a couple of years then slip off to financial ruin and anonymity again...

Well if you can't find a satisfactory job paying what you believe your worth, it would be a no brainer to set up your own business. Of course most people just complain & do nothing because it's the easy way out.

[Sky]

One point I noticed with the adverts in both countries is that it would appear easier to find a job in the UK as a fresh graduate than it would here.
There’s a philosophy of «give a grad a go» that is more difficult to come by here.
Many young people do internships to collect the sufficient amount of professional experience potential employers seem to require here, while in the UK there are more «beginner» jobs offered.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Sky
	One point I noticed with the adverts in both countries is that it would appear easier to find a job in the UK as a fresh graduate than it would here. There’s a philosophy of «give a grad a go» that is more difficult to come by here. Many young people do internships to collect the sufficient amount of professional experience potential employers seem to require here, while in the UK there are more «beginner» jobs offered.

Apprenticeships went out of fashion in the UK 40 odd years ago, it's a great shame.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Apprenticeships went out of fashion in the UK 40 odd years ago, it's a great shame.

That's not true.
There's been a major government drive to promote apprenticeships for a good few years now. The main failing, as told to me by a number of people I know who've been on them is, too many employers end the apprenticeship a few months shy of the end of the person's day release college course, which has led to two of them having to literally beg the colleges to allow them to complete their courses. Those two people were the joiner and decorator who worked on my total house refurb last year, and were both in their 20s and self-employed. It's a good system but very flawed under the government model.

https://www.apprenticeships.gov.uk/a...apprenticeship

[greenmount]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	People should have wider aspirations & set up their own business. Why would their be any sour grapes, Open University has been around long enough.

You know, not everyone wants the same things. I don't the see point in bragging about one's financial success. (Of course, I don't see the point in bragging about one's diplomas and titles either, it's considered bad taste).
Not everyone wants to have their own business, as not every business can or will be successful. Why should we measure someone's worth by that?

[curley]

meanwhile:
<<Boris Johnson has sent a request to the EU for a delay to Brexit - but without his signature.

The request was accompanied by a second letter, signed by Mr Johnson, saying he believes a delay would be a mistake.

Earlier, Mr Johnson rang European leaders, including Mr Tusk, to insist that the letter "is Parliament's letter, not my letter".>>

LOL.

I can't help thinking that's the kind of thing I would do in this situation too.

Leaning back, waiting for the red blobbies and the groans.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	curley
	meanwhile: <<Boris Johnson has sent a request to the EU for a delay to Brexit - but without his signature. The request was accompanied by a second letter, signed by Mr Johnson, saying he believes a delay would be a mistake. Earlier, Mr Johnson rang European leaders, including Mr Tusk, to insist that the letter "is Parliament's letter, not my letter".>> LOL. I can't help thinking that's the kind of thing I would do in this situation too. Leaning back, waiting for the red blobbies and the groans.

Well it seems Tusk is ignoring the nonsense and acting on the request by consulting the 27 heads of government.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Well it seems Tusk is ignoring the nonsense and acting on the request by consulting the 27 heads of government.

As he should. Tusk behaved like an adult. Johnson behaved like a petulant child.

Best interview yesterday was Lord Heseltine on Sky News. https://news.sky.com/video/id-be-beh...ltine-11840360

[Dinivan]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Well if you can't find a satisfactory job paying what you believe your worth, it would be a no brainer to set up your own business. Of course most people just complain & do nothing because it's the easy way out.

Unless you are suggesting that we should have 1 million people selling ice-creams or hot-dogs with a trolley, then things are not that easy. These people can't even afford to pay back their uni degree. Some can't even afford to pay for basic things such as proper heating at home. Starting any business requires some considerable capital to face the set-up costs and the lack of regular income at the early stages of the business.

[marton]

Scottish judges today rejected a request from the UK government’s lead lawyer, David Johnston QC, to throw out the legal action seeking the court to hold Boris in contempt of court re. requesting an EU extension.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Dinivan
	Unless you are suggesting that we should have 1 million people selling ice-creams or hot-dogs with a trolley, then things are not that easy. These people can't even afford to pay back their uni degree. Some can't even afford to pay for basic things such as proper heating at home. Starting any business requires some considerable capital to face the set-up costs and the lack of regular income at the early stages of the business.

That is basically what I am suggesting, no need for an expensive motorised vehicle, a hand cart or trolly is fine. If you can only get a job flipping burgers, no reason why you should not own the business.

There are plenty of grants available to those who apply. They big mistake was getting in debt to get a degree that won't give them a good living. Far better to have worked an extra 3-5 years in the workplace getting experience.

[22 yards]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	That is basically what I am suggesting, no need for an expensive motorised vehicle, a hand cart or trolly is fine. If you can only get a job flipping burgers, no reason why you should not own the business. There are plenty of grants available to those who apply. They big mistake was getting in debt to get a degree that won't give them a good living. Far better to have worked an extra 3-5 years in the workplace getting experience.

Far better for you, maybe. But far better for Jane next door to go to uni, because she's bright, motivated and cut out to become a lawyer.

Or would you prefer everyone to conform to the lowest common denominator so that the least academically gifted can feel better about themselves?

And again, could you stop this pointless "discussion" now? It is about as far off topic as is possible to get.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	22 yards
	Far better for you, maybe. But far better for Jane next door to go to uni, because she's bright, motivated and cut out to become a lawyer. Or would you prefer everyone to conform to the lowest common denominator so that the least academically gifted can feel better about themselves? And again, could you stop this pointless "discussion" now? It is about as far off topic as is possible to get.

I don't think people who study to become Solicitors or Barristers are the people who don't repay their student loans & flip burgers as they can get a job.

Of course you know best

[John William]

Hooray - yet another defeat for Boris, as the governments 2nd attempt to give MP's a meaningful vote
on his Brexit deal on Monday is rejected by Speaker John Bercow.

[st2lemans]

	Quote:	22 yards
	But far better for Jane next door to go to uni, because she's bright, motivated and cut out to become a lawyer.

Poor Jane.

Tom